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Post by hobdoglin on Oct 6, 2007 10:33:44 GMT -5
Talking about Offensive Imperial Guard armies! Tonight was my first 500pt Combat Patrol using my chaos cultist (using Imp Guard dex). With every model armed with warrior weapons, Infiltrate, no heavy/special weapons and minimal wargear, My Cult charged bravely (or stupidly) into the battle lines of my friend’s deathkorp gun line. With the few remaining models left after continual enemy fire I managed to take down almost half of his army before being completely wiped out lol!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2007 12:44:14 GMT -5
Unfortunately you must have as many normal infantry platoons as you have conscript platoons...
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Oct 6, 2007 14:37:53 GMT -5
hobdoglin (love the name), sounds like you learned the painful guard vs guard lesson called "he who is forced to move, loses." I'd recommend buying a hellhound if you're going to be playing him often. it'll scare him silly and allow you a medium tank that can literally kill a whole 10 man squad of his in 1 shot. I like to put a heavy stubber on my hellhound too, since if you miss with the hellhounds inferno cannon then you typically only kill half the squad outright. the heavy stubber allows you better 'cleanup' with 6 shots total (heavy bolter and heavy stubber) instead of just the 3 from the heavy bolter. it's great cuz you can move and shoot so it has a 30" range which means turn 2 you're lighting him up. smoke launchers are great for getting the hellhound to survive to turn 2. also since his focus will be on killing the hellhound, your infantry will get to advance unharrassed - a definite advantage for your style army!
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Post by Commissar on Oct 7, 2007 13:12:43 GMT -5
Also, choose doctorines, that and good tactics are what wins the day.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2007 10:24:00 GMT -5
Take all special weapons and CHEEEYARRRRRGE! with concripts followed by caparce armour and have heavy weapons at third row. Play like tyranids.
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Post by Commissar on Oct 10, 2007 22:00:21 GMT -5
LoL, or play like the NKVD and have rows upon rows of machine gun teams behind your troops.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2008 11:39:15 GMT -5
My current counter attack command squad includes the following:
HSO with Master Crafted Power Sword and laspistol 2 Guards with flamers (hhhmmm ... toasty!) 2 Guards with Meltaguns (hmmm ... more toasty!) Commissar with Carapace, MC PowerAxe and Bolt Pistol Psyker with Honorifica Imperialis Mundanus and a Force Weapon AND THE MIGHTY ... Nork Deddog - why doesn't anyone else know about him? He's the GW Orgyrn Bodyguard with the best stats IG characters can get. All in a toasty H.Flamer Chimera supported by two hellhounds ... hehehe!
The other alternative against the alien scum is a DeathWatch Kill Team to add a small SMurf punch to your HQ selection. Anyone who's read the Ultramarine Novels know they a) rock and b) come with awesome ammo type straight outta the oldschool Advanced Space Crusade (Hellfire etc). Plus its a real treat to model them, where you can buy just the SMurfs you want and have one of every colour - awww how cute.
The PDF's for all the above are on the GW website - have fun.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2008 15:26:40 GMT -5
When choosing heavy weapons, remember that the Guard will hit only 50% of the time. Therefore, follow a simple rule.
More shots = more win.
A lot of people look down on the heavy bolter when they compare it with things like the Space Marines. However, they're not looking at what it's for. The Guard do not shoot to destory, crush, etc. We don't have the accuracy or the firepower.
The Guard works best when it forces as many armor saves as possible.
Thusly, give your troops multi-shot weapons like Heavy Bolters/Autocannons. Reserve your single-shot, high powered weapons for your tanks (better survivability), Heavy Weapon Platoons (more hits through the expedient of firing more shots), and Hardened Vets/Stormies (better BS).
The one exception to this rule is the Sharpshooters doctrine. Being able to re-roll misses allows even regular Guard troops to become a danger.
Defensive Lines should use the terrain to their advantage. Their heavy weapons should have clear corridors to be able to shoot at the enemy. Use Mortars and Basilisks to either flush the enemy out into your kill zone or make them keep their heads down as your Offensive Line moves forward.
A note- Conscripts are tar pits, nothing more. If they make it to the other guy's line without running, that's all well and good. However, their best use is tying up heroes and their retinues/low model count elites when they deep-strike or are ejected from their transports.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2008 13:01:32 GMT -5
I do like this idea of a guard army actually taking the fight to the enemy. Surprise really is the best weapon.
what do you do when fighting guard, you get into close combat and kill them. but what about when they come at you?
This tactic will require some careful choices, i think it would work well if used a chimera with ogryns packed into it. I'm not sure if would have to say what was in the chimera, maybe right it down. i don't see why you should have to say how would your enemy know what was in that tin?
I would also think that hardened vets would make a good assault unit as well... but charging in with guard is definitely something i will have to try to use.
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angelusmortis
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Post by angelusmortis on Feb 22, 2008 19:59:36 GMT -5
I would recommend the following. - Lots of Conscripts up front followed up by your regular platoons. You could even toss in some Rough Riders to fix units as well to prevent a lot of enemy fire on your Infantry.
- Chimeras. Move. Disembark. Rapid fire. Next turn charge. Smoke if you need to.
- And probably the best of all is the Gorgon. If you have the cash or can scratch build one. I have 2 myself and they rock. Very survivable (vs. shots mainly from the front), open topped so you can assault after disembarking, and can carry multiple squads and a capacity of up to 50 standard Infantry. Just the answer for any Guard offensive, hands down.
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Post by mccaptain on Feb 26, 2008 21:41:35 GMT -5
I put together a roster for a 2000pt. Mechanized army that was made for taking the fight to the enemy. Its in the Army List section labeled. 2000pt Mechanized Strike Force. I haven't received any comments on it though so any thoughts would be quite appreciated.
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Post by skizoman333 on Feb 27, 2008 19:08:38 GMT -5
Surley it would be much better to use a leaman russ demolisher. For only 10 pnts extra you could get an extra piont of amour on the side compared to a regular russ, as well as the demolisher cannon which needs to be used at close ranges anyway, so thats good support for your assault troops if that manages to survive the menouver.
i prob wouldnt bother with the plasma cannons, as ull be too busy firing the demolisher, but then again, they could work as a good back up in case the cannon gets blown up, letting u spread templates all over the enemies flank
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Post by mccaptain on Feb 28, 2008 16:17:41 GMT -5
Don't take the demolisher without the sponsons. It has actually been key in winning games for me before. Lost the turret but was able to keep fighting and cranking out damage. If you're going to invest money in a tank make it worth the while. IMHO a demolisher without sponsons is a point sink waiting to happen.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2008 9:30:23 GMT -5
After much experimenting I've found a fantastic counterattack group for defending your back lines - Sentinels. I've armed mine with Autocannons and have them stalk the angles adjacent to the heavy weapons Support options. By converting them with Hardened Fighters, they have 9 WS4 S6 attacks on the counter attack. I'm just trying to dig up the rule book to see if they ignore armour saves like monstrous creatures - that would be cool!
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Mar 4, 2008 10:20:18 GMT -5
hmm that's an interesting idea - a unit as capable in move and shoot ranged combat as it is in melee.
my only concerns are: 1. points cost seems high 2. if you shoot with sentinels they typically die immediately thereafter
the obvious good points are: 1. being able to shoot as they move around getting into position 2. tough cookies in melee, especially when there's 3 of them to a squadron.
bad points: powerfists=ownt.
still it is a very interesting idea! nice to see some outside the box type thinking on this subject.
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Mar 4, 2008 10:24:03 GMT -5
My current counter attack command squad includes the following: HSO with Master Crafted Power Sword and laspistol 2 Guards with flamers (hhhmmm ... toasty!) 2 Guards with Meltaguns (hmmm ... more toasty!) Commissar with Carapace, MC PowerAxe and Bolt Pistol Psyker with Honorifica Imperialis Mundanus and a Force Weapon AND THE MIGHTY ... Nork Deddog - why doesn't anyone else know about him? He's the GW Orgyrn Bodyguard with the best stats IG characters can get. All in a toasty H.Flamer Chimera supported by two hellhounds ... hehehe! that's a command squad made to do some buttkickin'! one thing I really like is the dual hellhounds - if there's one gun that gets the job done in the IG arsenal it's the inferno cannon. when it hits, boy does it hit, and even if it misses you still typically take a bit with you anyway. this thing has such a high target priority that it provides amazing cover for whatever it escorts and you're spot on - it should be taken in pairs, or even maxed out at 3 taken.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2008 15:41:15 GMT -5
Much obliged TB, comment noted on the additional Hellhound. I find nothing scares the willies outta orks, eldar and tau like two hellhounds hitting the flank - so why not three. And SMurfs ignore them at their peril. Check out Nork - he's a must for an agressive HQ command and we all want to model one orgryn - I'd just rather not buy ten - a bit pricey!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2008 16:25:13 GMT -5
hmm that's an interesting idea - a unit as capable in move and shoot ranged combat as it is in melee. my only concerns are: 1. points cost seems high 2. if you shoot with sentinels they typically die immediately thereafter the obvious good points are: 1. being able to shoot as they move around getting into position 2. tough cookies in melee, especially when there's 3 of them to a squadron. bad points: powerfists=ownt. still it is a very interesting idea! nice to see some outside the box type thinking on this subject. Cheers TB. In answer to your well put questions... I usually shuffle them around the back of the board, behind a leman or demolisher. I fight against Eldar a lot and the frustration is with their fleet of foot they keep jumping from cover to cover, and suprise surprise, just outside line of sight (LOS) for my heavy weapons crews. Having Sentinels with them means that I can adjust the angle as they approach to best LOS and force them out of any clear channels they have to my line. I usually work them in combination with three support crews, Heavy bolter, missile launcher and mortar team. It's worthwhile thinking through your fire order because a couple of times I've forced pinning onto enemy Heavy weapon groups with my mortars (in this case a SMurf Devastator team) and then strolled out with impunity with my sentinels to get shots at them for two turns. How often do you see a clear opportunity for your heavy weapon team and can take it because you'd need to move 3 inches?? The ability to maneuver is superb. You want the Sentinels positioned so that they can clear up from left to right or right to left, knifing all heavy weapons and threats in support of the HW crew. The perfect option is to place them behind the HW team placed on size one building (bunker etc). That way they are effective behind the heavy weapons team, can fire past them, but benefit from the Heavy weapon team providing a screen to Lascannon fire etc. Heavy weapon team get 4+ invulnerable, 3+ with camelione. Sentinel gets to otherwise try to deflect the lascannon shot using his personal shaving mirror!! Two questions: (a) is this maneuver legal, cause it ain't ethical! and (b) Do Sentinels ignore saving throws in CC? Dreadnoughts do and so do Wraithlords and other vehicles/monstorous creatures - so why not the ATST? On the power fist side - yeah well, that's the danger you face. The upside is with 9 attacks (1A, plus Charge, plus hardened fighter), plus the 6 attacks from your poor HW plebs you can usually beat down a small drop group. They'd need 21 attackers to "outnumber" your Sents so I'd have a go! On the cost side, how much is a squad of Orgyrn, or rough riders or a kitted out command squad - cheap effective CC troops? Not in this mans army! Remember with IG it ain't about winning the CC, its about hanging around for ages being really irritating so your mates can get away! On a terrain note - I recommend building size one "half submerged" bunkers with barracades around the top. Think German WW2 bunkers. Build six and build them modular and you can combine them into a HQ building or simply use them as elevated barracades etc. I find this tactic has many benefits: (a) Fire support for covering the enemies clean movement channels. (b) Great for taking that shot you can't with your "move or fire" HW crews. (c) Sentinels are ignored for close combat - so most jump assault groups will charge in and ignore the stick walkers. With 9 S6 hits at WS4 and no save - make 'em regret it. (d) Even if they do learn, the sentinels are still handy in a scrap and can hold they own with better toughness and strength than Orgyrns... (e) They look sooo cool sporting a autocannon and a whopping great chainsaw - Grrrr! Here endeth the lesson according to St. Suneokun.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2008 11:22:26 GMT -5
My current counter attack command squad includes the following: HSO with Master Crafted Power Sword and laspistol 2 Guards with flamers (hhhmmm ... toasty!) 2 Guards with Meltaguns (hmmm ... more toasty!) Commissar with Carapace, MC PowerAxe and Bolt Pistol Psyker with Honorifica Imperialis Mundanus and a Force Weapon AND THE MIGHTY ... Nork Deddog - why doesn't anyone else know about him? He's the GW Orgyrn Bodyguard with the best stats IG characters can get. All in a toasty H.Flamer Chimera supported by two hellhounds ... hehehe! that's a command squad made to do some buttkickin'! one thing I really like is the dual hellhounds - if there's one gun that gets the job done in the IG arsenal it's the inferno cannon. when it hits, boy does it hit, and even if it misses you still typically take a bit with you anyway. this thing has such a high target priority that it provides amazing cover for whatever it escorts and you're spot on - it should be taken in pairs, or even maxed out at 3 taken. Yep. But if you're really serious, take the hardened fighters and carapace armour doctrines, that adds 35 (only 30 if you subtract the Commissars Carapace) to the price. You then have Nork, the Colonel and your Psyker at WS 5, and 6 dudes at WS 4. Carapace armour all round - nice. NB: I find carapace armour makes a bigger difference in close combat compared to ranged, where you generally get all your saves regardless of enemy type (versus most) or none (versus power weapons and monsterous creatures).
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Mar 7, 2008 0:39:02 GMT -5
It's worthwhile thinking through your fire order because a couple of times I've forced pinning onto enemy Heavy weapon groups with my mortars (in this case a SMurf Devastator team) and then strolled out with impunity with my sentinels to get shots at them for two turns. wow you just opened my eyes with that statement! the synergy you can create with sentinels supported by mortars, snipers, and basilisks (any of the stuff that causes pinning) is HOT. sentinels pop under fire, we all know this, but I've never EVER considered using suppressive fire in an attempt to pin an enemy so that I can safely take shots with my sentinels. that's a really good thought, bud. The perfect option is to place them behind the HW team placed on size one building (bunker etc). That way they are effective behind the heavy weapons team, can fire past them, but benefit from the Heavy weapon team providing a screen to Lascannon fire etc. Heavy weapon team get 4+ invulnerable, 3+ with camelione. Sentinel gets to otherwise try to deflect the lascannon shot using his personal shaving mirror!! Two questions: (a) is this maneuver legal, cause it ain't ethical! and (b) Do Sentinels ignore saving throws in CC? Dreadnoughts do and so do Wraithlords and other vehicles/monstorous creatures - so why not the ATST? a level 1 structure is like a rubble pile or a low wall that is hurdle-able. we'll assume you are talking about a level 2 bunker (low to the ground, with people inside it standing with their feet a bit below actual ground level - common bunker style - allows for a bit of a trench system to come out its back entry/exit allowing cover for soldiers coming and going if they find themselves taking fire). with a lascannon team in or on a bunker as above described and a sentinel positioned behind it firing over the top, the lascannon team gets its cover and anyone shooting at the sentinel must pass a leadership test to NOT fire at the closest unit. if they successfully do that, then they may fire at the sentinel, which since it's hanging out behind a lvl 2 building, gets the benefit of the 'obscurement' rule. that's how that situation pans out. as far as the sentinels attacks ignoring armor saves, unfortunately, they do not. the DCCW (dreadnought close combat weapon) is what allows dreadnoughts to negate armor saves and if they opt for the missile launcher arm replacement then their strength drops off and their melee attacks no longer negate armor saves. hope this clears that up for you (although I'm sure you were hoping for better news on that front).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2008 5:33:11 GMT -5
Yes indeed - It's a shame... I find it stange that a S6 vehicle armed with a chainsword as big as a man doesn't modify saving throws at all - very odd. I'd class that scale of weapon in the same league as a evicerator, so as least rending.
No matter 9 S6 attacks at WS4 will have to do! The pinning concept is the advantage of using what the imperial guard is strong at, and the sort of tactic the British military invented at Amiens in the dying days of the First World War. It's called "combined arms" and is the combination of artillery, tanks and troops to decimate the enemy. The idea is simple: use artillery to hamper the enemies preparation, so that you troops hit the lines with maximum impact - supported by tanks.
On the table top the tactic works well in two ways. Firstly to cover your Sentinels. Effectively "pinning" works as covering fire - which is the key to modern army tactics (and largely ignored in W40k) where you open fire on the enemies cover in order to stop them taking a shot (anyone who's played paintball would understand this) and letting your other squad charge or circumvent their fire with impunity.
If you want to understand this better buy the "Road to Hill 90" game - superb use of this tactic throughout the game. I use this tactic with snipers/ratlings or mortar to do the following.
Choose a weak point in your enemies lines - preferably the unit is in a key position, in cover and nice and safe (he'll never expect it). You will need the following in position for this tactic to succeed:
a) Veteran Squad armed with Shotguns, Grenade Launchers and Flamers within 18" of enemy position. Or alternatively in a Chimera... b) Mortar Team (at least three, preferably more) or snipers/ratlings with line of sight (LOS). c) Autocannon/Multilaser Sentinels in Support.
Turn One: Fire Mortars/Snipers on target to achieve suppression. Enemy Turn: nothing doing. Turn Two: If target suppressed move Veterans (in cover preferably) within 12" and Sentinel into LOS. Open fire with Mortars and achieve suppression and fire shotguns/grenade launchers to kill. Sentinels target group to kill. 1/2 hits saved but still. Enemy: nothing doing or routed. Turn Three: Veterans move 6", Sents and Veterans and Snipers open up (not Mortars - its too close) and kill remaining buggers with grenades, flame and shotguns. If enemy still struggling on charge in the Vet's (preferably with Hardened Fighters) to finish the job.
Needless to say, turn three isn't usually needed.
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Colonel Scipio
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Post by Colonel Scipio on Mar 17, 2008 15:32:32 GMT -5
I'm playing a campaign against a SM player (yes, I'm fighting Imperial but there is a reason... corruption, taint etc etc, misunderstood orders, typos in mission briefings etc etc large vat of sausage etc etc and so on).
In the first mission, a simple take and hold, I simply took, and held. Or at least gave a hearty attempt... enemy Veteran Squads cut through three of my four squads, assaulting tanks were all immobilised or had primary weaponry destroyed by land speeder-borne multi-meltas and the remaining guardsmen all riddled with boltgun-fire until their carapace armour had more holes in it than the GW fluff for the Eye of Terror campaign.
Game II. Full of vengence and lust for blood, an advance was again ordered. Unfortunatley, this had replaced both my tactical sense and memory and a tragicaly similar mission unfolded before my tearful (and my troops' terrified) eyes. My command squad valiantly and stupidy charged a Space Marine commander. It was terrible; there were guts and eppaulettes everywhere.
With my commander missing, presumed eviscerated, I boldly set about with a new plan to sieze the initiative and take the war to the enemy: I did nothing. With two sucessful faliures under my belt and the campaign taking an embarrasing turn, I decided to do what the Guard do best. I sat, and I shot. Line after line of proud (and relieved) Guardsmen were ordered to sheath their bayonets and filled them so full of bullets that the valley in which the battle took place began to take on the seeming of a scrapyard, littered with tanks and suits of power armour. Not one model made a single move throughout the battle, save for a single squad of Guardsmen who were shot at and promtly legged it. Oterwise, total immobility!
Imagine my delight! Terminators, terminated! Marines, marinaded! Devastators, devastated! Victory was soon in sight, and the campaign was swiftly turned around.
Basicaly, what I'm trying to say is that the posibility for faliure rises exponentialy together with the depth of the plan. While sometimes immobility is as ill-advised as not supporting your Platoon Commissar's favourite football team, it should not be discounted as a possible tactical option amongst all these new fangled ideas, like 'moving' and 'cover'.
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Mar 17, 2008 17:50:56 GMT -5
...and the remaining guardsmen all riddled with boltgun-fire until their carapace armour had more holes in it than the GW fluff for the Eye of Terror campaign. I laughed out loud on that one - nice while there is an admitted truth to your statement, sometimes the guard must simply 'take the hill.' thus this thread dealing with the art of doing so. I would be interested to hear your thoughts about the first two battles and how with a bit of theory-hammer employed, you could have fared better against the marines.
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Colonel Scipio
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Post by Colonel Scipio on Mar 17, 2008 18:17:49 GMT -5
I would be interested to hear your thoughts about the first two battles and how with a bit of theory-hammer employed, you could have fared better against the marines. Yes, I think that perhaps a bit of skillfully applied mobility (particularly that little wrinkle with the two chimerae flanked up by a Leman Russ... got to try that one) might have saved the situation. I always find myself too cautious to commit infantry to a fully fledged assault which is perhaps my problem. I've always been a bit of a treadhead but the thread has come up with some interesting ideas for footsloggers; so much so that I have expanded and revised my definition of infantry in my army's Tactical Doctrine Manual, so it no longer reads, 'Not a Tank'. I shall report back on a more spirited (and well planned) attempt to take the hill, pending a battle oppourtunity to do so.
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Mar 18, 2008 4:03:21 GMT -5
yeah I'm guilty of not fully commiting my mobilized elements too...I look at it and see 2 chimerae and a hellhound that can >shoot< if only they move 6" ... so much dakka.... and I sell out. I move the 6, and open up on the enemy, where I really need to pound the pedal to the metal and rush the 12", pop the smoke and let the hellhound go up in a ball of flames then pull thru with the 2 surviving chimerae and dump the 20 grenadiers out into a flank.... but all that dakka on the vehicles is a hard thing to sacrifice!
it's kind of one of those situations where your mind screams 'this is the right move!' (shooting the guns) but if you're disciplined enough to max your move and commit to the rush you can actually perform a flanking manoeuver which is *gasp* successfully introducing >tactics< to your game instead of fighting like an undisciplined commoner.
and yeah, at current I'm commanding my army like an undisciplined commoner.. it's one of the things I need to do to up my game is to actually take a strategy or battlefield tactic and successfully employ it, sacrificing what needs to be sacrificed (but which feels so so wrong to do) to achieve tactical advantage.
this tactical advantage stuff directly has rewards...hmm, I get to shoot the chaos predator in it's weak side armor now instead of bouncing shells and missiles off it's front armor like it wants me too? cool! BOOM wow I just killed a predator easily...maybe there's something to this!
I realize I'm rambling and am totally lost in theoryhammer...but at least it's based on my actual tabletop gaming experience of failing to rush and seeing the general failure of a slow armored advance with the infantry coming up behind the wall of armored protection type advance.
that slow 'I move 6 and unload with my chimerae and hellhound into you every turn' advance is great if you only need to take a central objective but it's pretty dumb if you need to get to your enemies lines and engage them and it's too slow to achieve a flanking move.
anyway, I'm gonna stop rambling.
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