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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Jan 15, 2007 3:53:35 GMT -5
well you have a m203 underbarrel grenade launcher which directly equates to a well..grenade launcher there's also SAWs (squad automatic weapons) which are basically m60s that can use m16 clips cuz they fire the 5.56mm ammo instead of the 7.62mm m60 bullets. knight, how does it work for you to have no heavy weapons in your squads? I personally have opted to go as fluffy as I can and have one platoon with missile launchers (as they seem pretty portable) and one platoon with heavy bolters (because a heavy machine gun is a portable thing if anything is)
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Post by knight (M.I.A) on Jan 15, 2007 12:42:05 GMT -5
Strongly depending on my day and opponent j/k I tend to move my squads a lot to make countercharges, sacrifices, rapid fire movements, tactical retreats and other stuff like that and it works quite well just with special weapons. And I still have my Sentinals and HQ support squads for HWs (even if it's a bit more expensive). Overall I'd say it's not necessary to have HWs in squads, but if you play more 'static' than me it's really nice to have them. PS: HWs are not fluffy enough for me in Light Infantry squads, just slows them down
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2007 14:04:10 GMT -5
Going back to Woz,
I would say that the M60 is on par with the heavy bolter and that the M2/50 cal is on par with autocannon. Heavy bolter and M60 are anti infantry weapons whereas autocannon and M2/50 cal are both anti infantry and anti aircraft weapons (mainly low flying).
As to whether HW guy still gets his lasgun, it says in codex that the Hw is an upgrade (from memory) so it doesn't replace his lasgun.
Back on topic, if your squads are mobile then i'd say don't give them a heavy weapon, but i think that other squads do this role so much better such as stormtroopers, 2 assault weapons and carapace. As well as vets, 3 assault weapons.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2007 16:50:47 GMT -5
Ok, we'll start with a little fluff. I was Inf in the Australian Army. We had two Minimis (SAW) per section (squad) plus two grenade launchers plus four light anti-tank weapons. Aussies are light infantry/rangers so we don't have any real anti-tank capability.
I am sure the M60 is the RL equal of the Hvy Bolter. It is crew served and can be used as a sus fire weapon if mouted on a tripod with a SFMG section
As for the rules on HW and lasguns, the rules say that any model without a lasgun, ie the guy with the Hvy Bolter, is assumed to have a lasPISTOL. He can only fire one or the other, but the rule is quite clear. Upgrading a Guardsman to Hvy Weaps means he leaves his lasgun at home
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Post by knight (M.I.A) on Jan 16, 2007 17:08:54 GMT -5
Hmm. Good point, but it's nowhere stated, that they don't have a Lasgun. When I buy the squad, I get 9 guardsmen and 1 sergeant with Lasguns and the sarge may exchange his weapons. And now I just found something really interesting. In my Codex it is just stated, that one trooper may get a special weapon or 2 may form a HW team and MUST get a HW. But nowhere they're told to leave the Lasgun at home. They NEVER REPLACE their weapons, they keep them. In the case of the HW team I don't wonder very much, GW elivers 2 Lasguns with the ccrew sprue, but I'm a bit surprised that the term for the special weapons isn't including a "replaces his Lasgun with one of the following special weapons..."
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Jan 16, 2007 21:22:17 GMT -5
where does it say that it's assumed they get a laspistol?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2007 13:15:07 GMT -5
Back when Games Workshop still had a forums section, that was in the FAQs section. Guard Heavy Weapons teams consist of 1 Guardsman who /replaced/ his Las Gun with a heavy weapon, and a second guardsman who's been trained to use the weapon in case the first gets sniped out. (Vindicare, LOS casualty restrictions, ect.) It's like trying to claim that a Space Marine gets to run around with a Bolter and Missile Launcher. It's not gonna fly.
Oh, and Turtle, the M203 is the real-world equivilent of the "Auxilary Grenade Launcher" from Imperial Armour 3: The Taros Campaign. (Lasgun + single-shot Krak Grenade Launcher)
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Post by Goddess of Darkness on Jan 18, 2007 16:38:05 GMT -5
Ok I just went and had a squizzie at the Armies of the imperium army list builder. Even on there if you have a heavy weapons team it does NOT ask you to replace your lasguns to take a HW. But if you want to take a SW than you have to take off the lasgun.
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Post by knight (M.I.A) on Jan 18, 2007 16:52:27 GMT -5
Take a look at Heavy Weapon platoons in the HQ section. There is it directly stated, that the troopers are all armed with Lasguns and additionally get the HW
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2007 18:58:28 GMT -5
Yeah, but that is only if they are "Modelled" with a lasgun. Some of the old models didn't have a lasgun and are considered to only have laspistol and cc weapon. The new models have gotten rid of this problem as they all can be modelled with lasguns. Still, I wouldn't be happy having to carry 10.5kg of M60 (14.5 if Mag58) of SFMG around and still carry my 4.5kg of Styer (and the ammo it requires)
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Post by Woz on Jan 21, 2007 20:50:02 GMT -5
OK for those who haven't read this from the beginning I'll repost what I put earlier-
The rules says that a HW crew must take one of the HW choices but it doesn't say that this HW replaces the lasgun.
The important bit is the missing REPLACES. The points cost of a guardsman includes his lasgun.
So two guardsmen form a HW crew and pick up a Heavy Bolter but no-ones told them to put down their las guns.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2007 14:59:43 GMT -5
if u ever have to take a possition when u move the weapons cannot fire as they are heavy weapons meaning u have a turn without shooting this leaves u vunirable.
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Post by Colonel Grammissar Azalar on Jan 27, 2007 15:03:51 GMT -5
No offence blackdeath, there is a sort of theme in this thread, that we can read it.
I dont do text speak -Skips blackdeath's post-
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Post by Colonel Grammissar Azalar on Jan 27, 2007 15:07:35 GMT -5
My local GW
In a HW Platoon [ Such as Anti-Tank Support ]
Those firing the heavy Weapon do not get a Lasgun, but the Spotters still get a Lasgun.
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Post by Woz on Jan 27, 2007 20:54:11 GMT -5
if u ever have to take a possition when u move the weapons cannot fire as they are heavy weapons meaning u have a turn without shooting this leaves u vunirable. The guy with the HW still has his lasgun which he can still fire. So that makes them as vunerable as a squad with no HW.
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Post by Woz on Jan 27, 2007 21:05:39 GMT -5
My local GW In a HW Platoon [ Such as Anti-Tank Support ] Those firing the heavy Weapon do not get a Lasgun, but the Spotters still get a Lasgun. The entry for HW squads says use the Command squad entry for guardsman. In the Command squad entry it says that guardsman are armed with a Lasgun or las pistol and CC weapon. So you pay the points for six guardsmen armed with lasguns or las pistols and CC weapons. These are split into three HW crews of two men, Each crew must be equipped with a HW. Again it doesn't say that the HW replaces the Guardsmans original weapon(s) so he must still keep it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2007 23:08:48 GMT -5
yeah... pretty sure everyone has a lasgun.... its just the one guy using the HW isnt using his lasgun right at the same moment.... like a guy with a Plasma Pistol and a Bolter.... he has both, but can only fire one at a time... same with HW crews
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Post by Colonel Grammissar Azalar on Jan 28, 2007 7:09:37 GMT -5
Im pretty sure that the HW Firer dont get another weapon. Ill ask when im next down my Local GW.
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Post by majorjav on Jan 28, 2007 12:03:25 GMT -5
It is stated in the rules that 2 gaurdsmen form a heavy weapon team...so they still have their lasguns. See GW minis: they sell heavy weapon teams with the 2 lasguns so... The point is that we, hobbyists, make many conversions. We do like having only on guy carrying the weapon and the other carrying ammo, that's why it can be confusing!
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Post by Colonel Grammissar Azalar on Jan 28, 2007 12:19:40 GMT -5
Hmmm. I dunno.
Its all bit too confusing.
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Post by Woz on Jan 29, 2007 17:52:25 GMT -5
Im pretty sure that the HW Firer dont get another weapon. Ill ask when im next down my Local GW. The Guardsman has a weapon (lasgun/laspistoll cc weapon depending on which list he's from) when you buy him. When you give him the HW he doesn't lose this weapon. This is because the rules don't say that it " replaces" the weapon/s he's already got. The same goes with special weapons. I know that in the real world a guy lugging a great big HW won't want to want to carry another gun as well. Also wouldn't the loader be feeding ammo into the HW when it's being used. If so then how can the loader fire his lasgun as well.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2007 20:28:52 GMT -5
I can tell you haven't been involved in using these types of weapons in real life, but then again, how many people have.
When I was in the Mortar Plt, we carried our Steyrs with us. Three man crew. This is what I would say most cloely resembles a HW squad in 40k. You can't fire an 81mm Mortar from the hip so you need something.
I think the reason the "loader" thing get a bit blurry is when people think of WWI with one guy firing and the other guy feeding the weapon. The second, or third, man in more modern "crew' is there for three reasons, to carry extra ammo, to man-pack heavy mounts etc and to provide cover for the gunner when reloading or unable to use the weapon. During actual firing, the "crew" carries on as though they were normal Diggers. I see 40k in this light.
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Post by Colonel Grammissar Azalar on Jan 30, 2007 13:36:36 GMT -5
Right The second man in 40K is in case the first guy dies, so you can still use it, he dont acctully feed ammo, it comes from the boxes, that is how he fires. Obviously when You only have one guy left, then you dont get a Lasgun or Laspistol/CC Wep with it.
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Post by Woz on Jan 30, 2007 16:18:02 GMT -5
I can tell you haven't been involved in using these types of weapons in real life, but then again, how many people have. Your right I haven't (apart from my time in the cadets) but I was thinking of the two man crew where the loader is feeding the ammo into the gun. If he's feeding the ammo into the gun then he can't be firing his lasgun.
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Post by Colonel Grammissar Azalar on Jan 30, 2007 16:47:49 GMT -5
They are all Training.
The bottom is blatenly Training, you wouldnt have Earplugs in, or a guy sitting around in Plain Clothes.
In a war situation, if you had a Heavy Weapon such as a Motar, if the Firer didnt have a gun, his Squad mate [Who is 40ks Case Is The "Loader"] would have a Weapon in case the Enemy got to close
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