Blood Angels Blood Talon

[littlemac]

I heard that Blood Angels dreadnoughts can get two blood talons, which allows them to get more attacks in CC for every unsaved wound. And blood talons work like lightning claws, so that means pretty much anything without a invuln save won't get saves.

Thoughts or clarification on this?

[cheminhaler]

Do you mean 'normal' dreads or the Death Company dreads?

I haven't seen the codex, yet, admittedly. The prospect of a BA dread dropping out of the sky in a drop pod is pretty scary. That thing with 2 lightning claws at high strength will shred all artillery or tanks it can reach.

[Julian Sharps]

My solution: melta spam. If that doesn't kill it, I don't know what will.

[littlemac]

It sounds kind of broken to me...

[ElegaicRequiem]

But then again, dreads die rather quickly to MLs and ACs. You don't even need meltas, but they'll do the job even faster.

[Hetfiltrator]

Mar 16, 2010 7:03:09 GMT -5 cheminhaler said:

Do you mean 'normal' dreads or the Death Company dreads?

I haven't seen the codex, yet, admittedly. The prospect of a BA dread dropping out of the sky in a drop pod is pretty scary. That thing with 2 lightning claws at high strength will shred all artillery or tanks it can reach.

Furiousos.

[ElegaicRequiem]

Believe they could use drop pods before.

[Gabriel Lupus]

They may shred vehicles/our troops with ease, but if the BA player has a couple of them in drop pods, they will quickly run out of points for more useful things (dreads can be dealt with too easily) and remember - though they may be troops choices, Dreadnoughts are NOT scoring units...

[ElegaicRequiem]

Which blows my mind a bit - are they trying to tell me that a dreadnought can't control an objective?

[Gabriel Lupus]

Yes... basically (as in "no, they can't")

[Rolling Thunder]

No. It's a giant walking tank - it's immensely big and effortlessly easy to target, and more to the point, it would be deeply, deeply wrong.

[ElegaicRequiem]

Wrong for the game, yes. But it's just this silly thing I do, where I think about trying to inject reality into the tabletop...

[Rolling Thunder]

I demand lasguns have a 300" range with a 50" rapid fire range, and that Space Marines cost 7,000 points.

[RedsandRoyals]

I've already faced a Furioso with dual Blood Claws. Here are a few things I learned when using it.

First of all, the whole shebang costs the same as a Erad, and that includes the Pod. It's not like a BA player can't take 3 and still have enough points for Marine spam at 1.5k. Second, It ignores shaken and stunned, apparently. Third, it's AV 13, so ACs are essentially useless against it. Fourth, it has a Heavy Flamer AND Melta, so it'ss still hurt you badly if it lands near you. Finally, yes, it does get the extra attacks, yes, it ignores armour, and yes, it is pure OP Cheese.

Reds

[ElegaicRequiem]

That range thing sounds about right. Although, I'd say marines should cost ~ 55 or so each compared to a guardsman. But then they'd need to be as good on the tabletop as they are in the more reasonable fluff.

But think about it - realizing that the scale of the minis doesn't match the scale of the ranges - an inch on the table should be about eight feet or so in reality. Are they trying to tell me that guns can't accurately fire more than 72 feet on automatic?! That's about the range I can put a pistol round into a head sized target. Now hand me a carbine or rifle with a scope...

[Rolling Thunder]

Well, the entire BA codex is cheese and the result of space marine whine. Guard get fast skimmers with transport capacity? Marines get an instant one-up, despite us having to wait years for the Valk.

When people talk codex creep, they should make a distinction. New non-marine races usually get significant buffs (see Guard, Tyranids), cool new things and a revamped codex. Space Marines get cool new things, other people's cool new things, a revamped codex, new special rules that might as well read "And they shall ignore this rule as well", a points drop, cheap-ass units.....

Bah, rant over. Really, this is about as bad as the Sanctioned Psyker battle squad in terms of undercosted cheese.

[Gabriel Lupus]

Hey, if a BA player wants to drop 3 of these things on me, let them try - seems pretty easy to counter without having to make any changes to my list... I'm ready for the BA funk... are they ready for my pure grooviness? I think not Puppy dog

[RedsandRoyals]

Actually, going back to what RT said, I'd like to play Devil's Advocate for a moment.

Consider the Marine Codecies (BT, DA, SW, BA, and Original Flavor). Out of those five, I could consider (in no particular order) one good, one untested, two mediocre, and one bad. Now, we have a very, very good codex, possibly the best in the game. We can pack plasma into EVERYTHING, have cheap mech, and have a skimmer that reeks of cheese (The Ven), which is why I refuse to have more then one in any list I make. So, I don't feel too bad when I see a good Marine codex coming out, even if there are a few disgusting items in it, like blood talons.

Actually, let's look at BA as a whole. Here we have an army that centers around the idea of Deep strike and Fast Vehicles. Most of their elites and big, fancy (and expensive) squads DS in, making them horribly vulnerable. Vanguard actually got a point reduction, which I consider good, because they were overpriced in the Vanilla codex. Yes, they can also DS in Land Raiders, but 2/3rds of the time that big armoured box is going to land off target, and it'll probably miss-hap quite a bit, so I can't see many people doing it often.

Fast is the killer here. Turn 1 is key for BA, and they need to go first. If you have first turn and a decent round of shooting, you can cripple them, just like any other army. They do thrive as Mech, though, making things like Razorbacks hugely good by being able to move 12in and still fire. Baals having scout is a bit much, but it's the firepower they can pack that hurts, and they've always been able to dish out that much pain in the past.

Their SCs are a mixed bag. Mephistion has been getting a lot of press, but people forget three things. First, he can't join a squad. Second, no Eternal Warrior, so Force Weapons will kill him. Third, and most important, no Inv save. He can die from a single volley of Double Tap Plasma from a CCS. Also, you have to pay through the nose for the good SCs, unlike being able to get one of the craziest SCs in the game for less then 200pts, like some Codecies can do...

So yes, the Noughts are cheese if you play against power gamers. Just like IG can be pure cheese. If you play against people who want to run a fluffy BA army without ball-breaking their list to be as Uber as possible, then it's actually not a great army, overall, with lots of expensive elites and HQs, and heavy competition for the Fast slots.

So, yes, it has some insane things in it. They can be abused. Every codex has this, ours being a prime example. But remember that most Marine Codecies are actually not that great these days, so it's actually a change from what GW has been doing. My only real objections are to the SCs and Noughts, and one of those isn't used at my store unless your opponent says it's okay.

[/endrant]

Reds

[Rolling Thunder]

Hmm.

Valid argument Reds. I'd say that the power levels in 40K tend to keep increasing - codex creep itself is increasing as time goes by. As to why GW keeps pandering to powergamers, well, I have no idea. It started in 40K with the Chaos Marines Book - and that stupid ability, Lash of Submission.

[Gabriel Lupus]

I'm still a bit dubious regarding the whole theory of codex creep... granted brand new codexes generally have an easier time trumping very old codexes, but I think that's less a case of "oooh let's make the next codex:X awesome" and more a case of "look what our model casting powers are now - lets go further into the background of armies and make something that stretches what we can do" (granted sometimes this results in some... odd new things, *cough* windy crow *cough*, but usually it's good i.e. plastic Valks).

In my opinion, the issue is generally just a case of getting used to the quirks of a new codex, which is why I get the new codexes - that way I can understand my opponents rules, help GM other peoples games (thus reducing their arguments by having a third impartial "player"), and allowing me to be prepared for what they can throw at me.

As Reds has (very wisely) pointed out, the main things for BA (their achilles heel and their strength) are those first turn charges/fast Baals. Both of these can be quite easily countered/effectiveness reduced by deploying further into your own lines (meaning they have to go further and find themselves infuriatingly out of range - if done right...).

Most importantly (and again this is something Reds touched upon) when players actually look to making a fluffy BA army, one of two things will happen:
1) the army is not an overpowered cheesefest
2) the army is very elite - and tiny (look at the latest WD with that TINY 2000point BA "army")
Both of which would be fun to play against and balanced.

Let's just hope they don't return to putting stupid things like lash in again, hey RT

_{I seem to have rambled on for longer than I expected... my apologies...}

[Adam Selene]

Mar 31, 2010 14:41:41 GMT -5 Rolling Thunder said:

I demand lasguns have a 300" range with a 50" rapid fire range

Yerr and they shouldn't have stopped adding 9's to the deathstrike, intercontinental, thats not 960'' if they gave a rats lung about fluff-to-rules they would have made it 999'' wouldn't have taken much effort, and if they cared AT ALL they would have made it 9999", an few extra pixils of ink, not shockingly expensive or anything, this isn't actually perfect either but it would show me they care. rant over

back on topic I think the new blood angels codex is about right, their a 5 second smash and grab army which is shown well, not much staying power when compared to the guard, they could board us before we have time to pray to the Emperor but on the flip side I think they would flounder without 1st turn.

Yes the codex is unbalanced but that will force BA to use tactics, the guard are forced to used tactics (and I love them for it), somthing I can't say for codex ultramarines

[ElegaicRequiem]

Apr 1, 2010 8:09:51 GMT -5 Adam Selene said:

Yerr and they shouldn't have stopped adding 9's to the deathstrike, intercontinental, thats not 960'' if they gave a rats lung about fluff-to-rules they would have made it 999'' wouldn't have taken much effort, and if they cared AT ALL they would have made it 9999", an few extra pixils of ink, not shockingly expensive or anything, this isn't actually perfect either but it would show me they care. rant over

Numbers mean little when the range is 'unlimited.'

[Gabriel Lupus]

twitch - it's been updated in an FAQ - max range is now "unlimited" for the Deathstrike. Though I do agree with you, a little bit of sense in the design/pre-printing stage would have highlighted this little error... never mind

[Adam Selene]

unlimited! FAQ! YAY!!!

[ElegaicRequiem]

It's also in the codex...