Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Aug 23, 2011 9:05:13 GMT -5
Working on a new project, a historical skirmish miniatures game mostly based on material and research for my WHFB total realism project. This game will contain even more realism. No, I haven't changed.
So this is just going to be a thread where I put down ideas and sketches. You're free to comment, but I don't really expect much and the main reason I'm sharing this in development stages is because it's a good way to smuggle it through the work internet! Can't access hotmail or get a USB in here, hehe.
So with that in mind, don't be too judgemental, these will be early ideas although the project as a whole won't take me long to finish, most of the material is there and since it's gonna be generic enough to only require one army book. And since we're just dealing with humans.. yeah, simple stuff.
The game outline is somewhat inspired by Mount and Blade, and by that I mean small-scale mercenary or retainer forces. Basically it's designed to represent small independant mercenary bands, raiding parties, adventurers and explorers or a single noble retainer's soldiers. This to make it realistic to field 50-100 miniatures where every mode counts as one man, and that's that. It'll also have loose formation movement, similar to LOTR or 40K although units will still be present. More on that as follows of course.
So I hope no one minds my little hobby being perused here!
Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Aug 23, 2011 9:35:58 GMT -5
Unit statistics are inspired by WHFB, but tweaked for simplicity, added realism and originality.
6 characteristics, which may change in the future.
Vigour = Determines movement speed, combat turns and dexterity tests. Functions a bit like a mashed-together movement and initiative.
Offense= Simple offensive value, which combines a persons wit, strength and martial prowess. This is measured against Defense, similar to how S is measured against T in warhammer. This is all you need to roll to hurt someone, no difference is made between physical strength and martial prowess.
Defense = Simple defensive value, combining resistance, willpower, pain tolerance and skills in personal defense. See above.
Ranged = Representing the skill with ranged weapons, it is assumed that the model is trained to use the weapon they are carrying. To hit you roll similar to WHFB, affected by such things as range, weather and target position. I want a new name for this one.
Stamina = This represents a models physical tolerence and stamina. Basically this is the number of attacks they get. Considering mashing it up with Vigour, something like "a soldier has attacks per their vigour divided by 3, minimum 1". Will likely do that!
Bravery = Working name, basically it represents morale, leadership and courage. Used rather simply for morale tests and such that might incur. Will attempt to figure out a convinient way of taking this test with 1D6 just like the other tests(or 1d10 if I decide to change the basic dice sizes for originality points).
Post by knightcommander on Aug 23, 2011 14:06:54 GMT -5
this project of yours looks pretty good, sort of warhammer quest and mordheim for grown-ups. I've studied ( and fought with ) medieval weaponry, armour and tactics/military organisation so if you need to pick my brains about something feel free. Looking forward to the next installment.
Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Aug 24, 2011 2:04:18 GMT -5
Hey knightcommander, nice to meet you. I'll definitely keep that in mind, I've studied the techniques, designs and supposed historical application of most types of medieval equipment of war, but I've rarely had the chance to fight with anything but replica swords. If I need some advice I'll pop you a PM.
Glad you like the project! I have a lot of the basic stuff written or at least outlined already, much of it from my WHFB Total Realism project. Features of my new game will include weather/terrain effects, fatigue, individual equipment handled in a sensible and direct way, realistic troop types as far as they can be asserted, realistic equipment and cost for it (got a fairly good realisation of how much weapons and armour cost you in the late middle ages) and other stuff.. obviously this will have to be somewhat generic, for example swords would be more expensive in the dark ages than in the rennaisance (might make little addons for different time eras though), and Turkish swordsmen may be differently trained and fight differently than say Spanish swordsmen.. but unit profiles will go on general experience and not nation. This will include Slaves, Peasants, Militia, Soldiers, Veterans, Knights and the Captain. Captains will have a few different options to represent character personalities, for example some will be good leaders but mediocre fighters, some will be ferocious but reckless, some will be weedy but rich... etc.
WHFB TR inclued unit formations (spear wall, shield walls etc), which was a cool addition but something I'll likely drop on this scale of warfare (50-100 models).
Right, gonna do some work and then post scetches of basic unit profiles!
Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Aug 24, 2011 7:13:56 GMT -5
Unit profiles as they are now presented here. These are likely the only unit types that will be included, although add-ons to represent particular historical armies, time eras or nations might be added later. For now these profiles are meant to be relatively generic and represent human warriors across history.
UPDATED SYSTEM TO USE D10. EARLY SCETCHES OF UNITS ARE NOW EVEN EARLIER THAN BEFORE.
DUMPED STAMINA. EVERYONE GETS 1 ATTACK, MORE THAN ENOUGH WHEN A GOOD SOLDIER CAN KILL A LESSER ONE SO EASILY THANKS TO O/D VALUES.
LOWERED OFFENSE AND DEFENSE VALUES AS WEAPONS WILL SIGNIFICANTLY IMPACT THESE. UPDATED RANGED VALUES AND SLIGHTLY LOWERED VIGOUR ON MOST UNITS.
Slaves: These represent men forced to fight under threats and abuse. Indentured servants, thralls etc. Haven't decided it I want to keep these or not, fiding it troublesome to dig up historical evidence of slaves forced to fight. It was commonly the opposite, fighting came with high standard in society.
Men-at-Arms: Full-time soldiers, mercenaries and house guards. Often forms a core of professional warriors and bodyguards. These will be much more expensive than militia and are split into two different types. Names are for convinience and limitations in the English language, and I didn't want to overcomplicate the terminology as it's relatively unrealistic in the setting.
Captain: Your local retainer/mercenary captain. Lowly nobleman or knight providing soldiers for a lord, or an independant mercenary leader. And before anyone asks, Wounds are removed, captains are just men and men die from infected wounds if you stick things in them.
Profiles will vary, but presented below is the one I typed out for a typical brave, bold and generally awesome bloke. That profile or a similar one will be included, although likely with less overall effects on the army that a different profile could offer. These guys will be extremely important as they are able to activate units within a certain range, and can give orders.
So yeah, on that topic: Activation will be present, similar to a lot of historical wargames out there. Mine as it is is extremely simple and I aim to keep it as simple as possible while still representing a decent level of realism.
Basic outlines are as follows:
Any unit within 18" of a captain may attempt to activate at your turn. This game will not be turned based, activation will rule fighting order. If I go first, I attempt to active a unit. If I succed, the unit performs (moves, charges, shoots etc) and then my opponent gets to activate one of their own. If I fail, the turn passes over to my opponent and vice versa
Units consisting of or being led by sergeants will be able to activate themselves. If captain attempts to activate unit with sergeant, the unit gets a re-roll of the test.
Likely to introduce "mass activation" such as ordering every archer on your side to fire or every man to march forward. These will be powerful but leave you exposed as your opponent will get to roll for activation until they fail a test. Hence you can easily be tactically outmanouvred. For true medieval style fighting, take turns in giving orders about arrow volleys for half the game and move the army forward for the next. Also, mass activation enables all units within captains presence to roll for activation at the same time. If they fail they do nothing. Sergeants are good.
This is all VERY rough scetches on activation.
Fighting people is likely to incure automatically either in between every activation or something similar, it will be a natural and chronical effect rather than something that units need to activate to do.
I'm likely to add more specialised individuals.
I'm also somewhat likely, in order to niche this, to make army books for armies in the Mount and Blade game. And because it's fun.
Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Aug 25, 2011 3:29:52 GMT -5
Good to hear Walrus!
Thought I'd go over the phases a bit. Well, not phases. The actions a unit can take when it's activated.
Moving: Right, so you can obviously move up to your full Vigour value. Since this is on a small-scale and both marching and walking have no place in a raid melee fought on a small field or whatever, all models are assumed to run. It would be pretty damn stupid not to. While fatigue from marching and the ability and training to march effectively would matter in a real combat, it won't have any affect on my game unless you're playing a campaign. Sorry, but it'd be a bit daft to randomly roll for which units are already exhausted when arriving to the field and which aren't.
Charging is just moving, moving into an enemy unit. So you can move up to your V value, and if someone's in your way you charge them. Simple as that. It's likely that combat will incur in between every activation, so if you charge someone you even get to attempt to chop them down in the next turn. Probably gonna include a rule for consolidation, basically if you use 2" of your V to charge and then kill the whole unit/old man with stick in your way on the first turn of comabat, you get to move the rest of your V value after the combat's been fought. Fun, right? Am I the only one imagining rampaging Vikings chopping down English munks?
Shooting: If you don't want to move, you can shoot. Unfortunately you can't do both, unless you have a throwing knife, axe or spear in which case you can launch a volley at a penalty to hit and then charge a unit. Even more unfortunate, those kind of weapons aren't available in European medieval warfare and will be more of a commonly seen thing in the ancient/dark age ruleset and possibly some eastern european/asian/middle eastern warfare. anyways, moving on.
Shooting is performed with a ranged weapon such as a bow, crossbow or arquebus. You get penalties to hit depending on a lot of factors, such as if the unit you're firing at moved, weather, terrain etc. Shooting ranges will be realistic, so fornicate you all and eat longbow. Nah, it won't be that bad really, skirmish games brings with them a lot of terrain and it's not THAT hard to catch archers before they mow you down. Also armour is really good against basic ranged weapons, especially at range. We'll work something out.
Btw, horses will have their own profiles and will obviously be really fast. There will be two types of them, common dumbhorse and warhorse. The latter is much, much more expensive but totally worth it. Barding slows movement, but offers lotsa protection and it hurts even more when you get a horse charged into your face.
If you don't wanna shoot or move, there's not a whole lot else you can do. Oh, and about your captain... I'm sure you're all wondering when he gets to do something, and if he needs to activate himself.
"Move move move Company Commander!" "No, I don't think so, other Company Commander. Since we have split personalities I have decided that the Ork cause is more sympathetic than your constant bossing around and I'm just gonna stay here and wet myself isntead."
Yeah, we sorta want to avoid those fun situations.
Haven't properly figured this one out yet to be honest. I don't think the captain should at any point have to roll in order to activate himself, to the very least. Gonna talk with RT about it, and any inputs are appreciated.
Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Aug 30, 2011 8:22:29 GMT -5
So, for some weapons!
Close combat weapons will offer you bonuses and sometimes penalties to your Offense and Defense skills, and as well as that they have an Armour Piercing value. A high Offense value doesn't impact your ability to pierce armour, only your weapon does (a high O will make sure you get through those defenses though!), so this attribute is important. Oh, and if you DON'T carry any form of close combat weapon, you fight with -1 to O and D in close combat. Modifications to Defense never applies against ranged weapons, only in close combat.
Starting out with the basics.. Combat Knife, +1 Vigour.
Nah, not really.
Tool: A simple craftsman's tool and other improvised weapons. These includes carpenter's hammers, sickles, knives, shovels, farm scythes, wooden cudgels, tongs, wooden mauls, pitchforks etc.
Offense: - Defense: - AP: 1
Axe or Mace: Axes are both tools and weapons, and used to great effect to deliver cutting impact force that can break bones and armour. Maces have a similar purpose, but forego an edge for increased blunt trauma. Both are cheap, easy to use and very effective. Most axes and maces are inexpensive and can be locally manufactured.
Offense: 1 Defense: - AP: 4
Sword: Swords are elegant, expensive and in the right hands very versatile and dangerous. Most European swords are sturdy, heavy constructions that can inflict horrible tissue damage as well as being very useful for deflecting incoming blows. Swords are expensive and time-consuming to create, and maintain the role as a status symbol.
Offense: 1 Defense: 1 AP: 2
Flailed Mace: Flailed maces, or flails, are weapons consisting of a mace head attached to a chain. The momentum provided by the chain offers immense impact force, at the cost of control and defense. These are inexpensive weapons often made from peasant threshers.
Offense: 2 Defense: -2 AP: 6
Spear: Short or medium-length spears that can be used in one hand. Spears are very useful as defensive weapons as their range can keep an enemy at bay. They're also inexpensive, and easy to wield. Naturally they are common with militia. A group of spearmen can hold the ground far longer than most other soldiers.
Offense: - Defense: 2 AP: 2
Long range: Spears are long-ranged weapons, and so are able to hit a man from afar. They may attack models when being one model further back in the line of fighting than normal. In addition if a unit contains over 50% spears they get get +2 on the roll to decide who goes first on the turn where they are charged. This represents the spearmen taking the charge and the other soldiers moving in for the killing blow.
Horse Trap: When being charged at by cavalry that moves far enough to be able to cause an impact, spearmen hit the horse on a 1-7 rather than a 1-5. In addition, for the duration of the turn the spearmen fight with +2 Offense.
Polearm: These weapons include two-handed implements fitted with axe or mace heads, such as simple halberds, voulges and billhooks. They're extremely destructive weapons, but cheap to make and easy to use.
Offense: 2 Defense: - AP: 9
Two-Handed Axe or Mace: Daneaxes, cor-de-becs, mauls, bardiches and similar brutal implements of trauma. These weapons are less common than polearms in the western middle ages, but were prominent in medieval eastern Europe, the dark ages, Asia and during antiquity. Less powerful than polearms, but better in close quarters and for gritty melee clashes.
Offense: 3 Defense: - AP: 8
Halberd: These include well-made, professional halberds fitted with a hook for dragging men off horseback, and a long spear tip for taking cavalry charges. A Halberd can either fight as a Polearm or a Spear, and can change between the two at the start of every combat turn.
Glaives: These include weapons with a broad cutting edge and often a spear tip or some form of point, such as ranseurs, guisarmes, glaves, swordstaffs and similar implements. They are more offensive than spears, but still have a defensive value over normal poleaxes. These weapons can either be used as Spears or with the Glaive profile below.
Offense: 2 Defense: 1 AP: 7
Pikes: Pikes are extremely long spears, typically used in large formations to fight the enemy without engaging in a melee. They're also devastating against cavalry, and will often decimate a charge.
Offense: - Defense: 2 AP: 2
Very long range: Pikes are long-ranged weapons, and so are able to hit a man from afar. They may attack models when being up to two models further back in the line of fighting than normal. In addition if a unit contains over 50% pikes they get get +4 on the roll to decide who goes first on the turn where they are charged. This represents the pikes taking the charge and the other soldiers moving in for the killing blow.
Horse Trap: When being charged at by cavalry that moves far enough to be able to cause an impact, pikemen hit the horse on a 1-7 rather than a 1-5. In addition, for the duration of the turn the pikemen fight with +3 Offense.
Two-Handed Sword: This represents weapons such as bastard swords, claymores, bidenhänders and older Celtic two-handed swords. They're relatively rare and extremely expensive, but retain the flexibility of any sword while boasting improved impact force due to the double-handed grip.
Offense: 2 Defense: 1 AP: 4
Some new rules have been implemented.
Fighting order: In a clash between two units, each player rolls a D10, then add the majority Vigour value of their unit. Whoever gets the highest number, goes first.
Fighting line: The "fighting line" refers to a clash between two or more units. Base-to-base contact is very important and acts as a simplified measurement of who is close enough to fight other men. Most troops can attack models that are either in base to base contact with them, or they can attack models that are in base to base contact with a friendly soldier providing that your guy is also in base to base contact with this friendly model. Like LOTR spears, basically. Always liked that concept. Spears and pikes are able to attack models further down the fightine line, one and two further respectively. This means that a pike, the longest ranged weapon in the game, can attack a model that's in base contact with a friend that's in base contact with a friend that's in base contact with a friend providing the pikemen is in base contact with the last guy in the line. It's a lot more simple than it sounds.
Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Aug 31, 2011 9:44:40 GMT -5
Working/travelling for 12 hours every day is tiring, sorry I haven't been online much. Plan to be tonight, need someone to run these things through with! I'm glad you like the system, I've been heavily inspired by M&B and the different approach that LOTR has as well.
Troops are more finished than anything else in the book I think, happy with the basic outlines of them for the moment.
The weapons were written hastily while I was stressed and tired, gonna give them a proper run over later. And yeah, armour values go on D10. Polearms will be lowered to -5 I think, basically I'm comparing most of the weapons with their effects on full plate armour and I think bashing down a plate armour to 7+ on a D10 is reasonable for most polearms.
Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Sept 1, 2011 5:20:45 GMT -5
So, trying out this whole armour thing with a new system...
Armour is a value statistic like the others, but obviously you don't have an armour value without having armour! After a you've rolled your offense against an enemy's defense, and passed that test, you have to struggle with their armour. This is done by rolling your weapon's AP value against the Armour value that they have. Easy enough?
Armour refers to body armour, the type you would wear on your torso, back and surrounding areas. It also includes light greaves, bracers, gloves or similar additions that do not have a major effect on the overall protection offered.
At the end of the list, additional armour pieces are included. These can be bought separetely and added onto all armour but full plate suits, and offers extra protection for the wearer. The armour value of your additional armour pieces are added on to any armour value you might have from your body armour.
So let's start with the basics. Going along the European early to late middle ages route, so bear with me for now. Using actual armour types rather than rough abbrevations, as I have plenty to choose from with 10 types.
Leather Jerkin: A leather jerkin, jacket or body armour constructed out of hardened or boiled leather. It's not very effective against anything but lighter cuts and basic tools.
Gambeson: These are common padded jackets, coats and body protection, often worn by militia and soldiers. They're inexpensive but effective, and offers basic protection against most types of weapons.
Mail Haubergon: Simple light chain or scale mail tunic that covers your torso and possible parts of your arms. Relatively cheap to construct, and popular with Spanish mercenaries in the late 1400's as well as with many ancient and dark age soldiers and Eastern medieval soldiers.
Wisby Harness: A simple leather or padded cloth jerkin, typically without arms or protection for the legs. It's riveted with iron or steel plates to offer extra protection, and is an inexpensive way to obtain decent armour.
Munition Plate: A light, cheap iron breastplate commonly used by ancient Romans and Greeks, but also very popular with renaissance infantry. Munition plate is easy and cheap to mass-produce, and was often issued on masse where possible.
Mail Hauberk: A long coat of chain mail or scale mail, typically covering your upper legs and arms with variations throughout history. Popular with men-at-arms and knights in the dark ages up until the high middle ages.
Brigandine: A long coat or jacket made out of padded cloth or hardened leather, riveted with iron or steel plates. This refers to the long, heavy variant with arms commonly worn by soldiers throughour the middle ages.
Plate and Mail: Armour typically worn by knights and elite soldiers before the invention of the full-body plate armour. It consists of a mail hauberk with attached iron or steel plates. This was worn as transitional plate armour up until the late 1400's.
Cuirasser Plate: These are stripped-down versions of the full tempered steel plate armour, commonly worn in the mid 1500's as firearms started to make full plate armour less viable on the battlefield. Cuirasser plate consists of a tempered steel breastplate and tassets. Purchasing one or more additional armour pieces will be able to bring this armour up to its former status as the full plate armour.
Full Plate: Full plate armour suits came into being in the late 1400's, and are superb constructions of steel plate designed to offer maximum protection all around the body. Full plate armour is extremely expensive, but also the best that money can buy. These suits are always assumed to include a helmet and full leg and arm protection. These cannot be purchased seperately and added onto it.
Additional Armour Pieces:
Helmet: These include any iron or steel helmet that can be considered to offer a decent level of protection for the wearer. While there is a difference between a skull cap and an armet, the system doesn't allow to show it in detail. Therefore, as a basic principle, any useful iron or steel helmet counts as a "helmet" and may be bought in addition to body armour. Leather caps are ignored for armour purposes.
Leg Guards: This refers to complete iron or steel leg protection, such as the transitional plate leg armour but also the older Byzantine style of mail chaps worn with greaves, knee caps and protection for the thighs and upper legs.
Arm Guards: Similar to leg guards, these include transitional plate arm protection but also the bracers, gauntlets and shoulderguards worn by renaissance infantry and medieval knights (in combination with mail). Only iron and steel armour count, leather and wood is ignored for the purpose.
Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Sept 1, 2011 5:23:27 GMT -5
Gonna update weapon's AP values to tune in with the new system (NEW ARMOUR SYSTEM IN EFFECT, CHECK PREVIOUS POST), and then move on to shield systems and later ranged weapons.
Walrus: Glaives are in the game, but they're not as extravagant as you might think they are, they've been common in Europe along with other polearms post the 1200's. The profile also represent similar polearms with a relatively light chopping/cutting blade but with a defensive spear point.
Post by Rolling Thunder on Sept 1, 2011 6:21:56 GMT -5
Since you don't have any formalised drill until the 1600s, and no larger organisation between a company of 100+ men to around a division/corps level (wings/vans), you'd generally not see the uberexperienced/proficient/old mercs doing much aside from sitting up front where all their armour and skill could do the job well. Mostly by dint of much stabby goodness.
Incidentally, you need to up the defensive value for a breastplate significantly. The smooth, bowl-shaped surface is far superior at protecting against thrusts than something like a brigandine, mail or scale cuirass, which give something for the sword point to latch on to.
Also, transitional armour is basically full plate post-1400. Steel plates cover every part of the body. It's just somewhat heavier than the all-steel full plate. Cuirasser plate also tended to include full arm protection as well.
Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Sept 1, 2011 6:37:00 GMT -5
Sergeants basically have that job as it is, although they can also activate their own units. I just thought it'd be natural that the most experienced veteran would start bossing people around if the Captain seemed out of reach or was dead.
You're probably right, I'll kick it up to 4. Mind you, the profile represents very basic breastplates. I'm reluctant to kick it up to 5 as the brigandine profile represents the long-coated version with padded cloth or hardened leather supporting metal plates.
I have a number of pictures of early 1400's transitional plate armour, it tended not to include full chest and back protection as the actual breastplate or cuirass wasn't commonly around at the time. It also carries more chainmail than plate. I'm not saying that the difference is extreme compared to full plate armour, but the difference is there and I wanted to represent that. A fully equipped plate and chain still has an armour value of 9, putting it just under a full plate suit.
Cuirasser plate would typically include that in the 1500's, yes, but these profiles are for torso protection and if you have like a 1560's reiter with arm protection you'd just get the cuirasser plate armour + arm guards to cover it.