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Post by The Hawk! on Mar 11, 2013 17:51:32 GMT -5
I can see you getting quite a bit of hate for this one, not nessacerily here, but just watch your back with this one :/ I personally wouldn't use the Nazi Symbolism, but, again, it's your choice buddy and I respect it.  Those Half Tracks look pretty awsome so far as do the Tank and Basilisk Emplacment! I demand MOAR!!! Dave |
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Post by hacgutt on Mar 11, 2013 18:04:30 GMT -5
[glow=red,2,300]HATE WAGON[/glow]
Your stuff looks as good as always Prilladog :3 when you come to the club are you planning to bring them? Will they be allowed?
:3
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Post by Cosmic on Mar 11, 2013 18:05:55 GMT -5
I say good on you for doing this, you won't get any hate from me that's for sure everything's looking superb at the moment. To be honest there is no reason to hate this and it's themed, the majority of historical it's are of German Vehicles! People just like tanks! Is this to go against the Russians I'll be doing? |
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Post by Paradill on Mar 11, 2013 18:11:19 GMT -5
- If you don't wish to play against it, don't. - If the symbolisms of Germany offend you, don't comment.- If you don't like the morality of the army, don't comment. 1 - A fair enough comment. 2 - By symbolism of Germany are you referring to the Swastika? Because that's not a case of being offended by a symbol, that's a case of being offended by a repugnant ideology that it has come to represent. Even to this day that symbol represents genocide, racism, hate and fear. Millions if people dying because they had the 'misfortune' to be born Jewish, gay, physically disabled, epileptic, mentally disabled etc. I accept that this period of human history happened, and I agree it must not be forgotten. Glorifying it is still wrong. We remember our mistakes so we don't repeat them, not so we can relive them. 3 - it's a public forum, you have no more right to tell someone who doesn't like the content of your log not to comment than I do to command you to eat nothing but nuts for the rest of your life. Posting something of such a volatile nature invites criticism and in this case disgust. The swastika isn't the symbolism of Germany, it is the symbolism of the most shameful part of humanities history. Your use of these symbols and exact recreation of some of the most evil things that have ever walked on two feet is down right disrespectful. I admire your creativity, but I find your execution repulsive. Edit: Not a hate wagon. This is an extremely sensitive issue to a lot of people. Imagine if you'd been persecuted, your grandparents tortured of murdered, just because you were a Prilladog. |
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Sgt. Rock
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Post by Sgt. Rock on Mar 11, 2013 18:16:37 GMT -5
Honestly, I fail to see any significant difference between this and playing a Waffen SS division in Flames of War or any other historical wargaming. Until someone starts spouting hate speech and goes around curb stomping blacks and Jews, people need to get it through their heads that it's history. Nothing more. I've got a friend, who, like you, is a German WWII reenactor. He's not a Nazi, he's just fascinated by that part of history. I'm a history buff myself; I want to be a history teacher when I get done with school. I love Viking age history, and I play a Viking in the SCA, but that doesn't mean I go around raping, murdering, and pillaging. Well, maybe a little pillaging here and there. But history is just that, history. In the past. Something to study and learn from.
Now, on the models' merits... the SdKfz is a decent conversion, but it looks a little low-tech for the 41st millennium. It looks too much like a scale military model with some 40k guns put on it. I'd consider using it as a base, but modernising the design a bit; I'm not terribly helpful with that, I don't really have any suggestions, but maybe someone else will. You'd probably want to put a lid on it, as Chimeras aren't open topped. Also, the HB sticking out of the nose looks a little clunky; I'd be tempted to put it in a blister mount on one side, maybe take one of the HBs from the heavy weapon kit and model a little bulge onto one side of the driver's compartment. The Basilisk/88 conversion looks good, but if you're going to go as extreme on the "counts as" scale as that half-track, the Russ looks a little too... stock. People are going to look at that and think it's a Vanquisher, as well. Pick up a Tiger I kit, and bash the crap out of it with a Leman Russ sprue or two. Mash 'em up. When you paint them, be sure to add the Zimmerit the Wehrmacht and SS used on their tanks, too, as that will further blend the lines a bit.
Them's my thoughts on the matter.
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Sgt. Rock
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Post by Sgt. Rock on Mar 11, 2013 18:27:18 GMT -5
The swastika isn't the symbolism of Germany, it is the symbolism of the most shameful part of humanities history. Incorrect. The Swastika is an extremely ancient symbol, representing good fortune, long life, and growth, used by countless African, Indo-European, and Native American cultures. Its co-opting and corruption by the Nazi party is an unfortunate part of history, as it was used by an organization that was the opposite of what it was intended to represent, but the Swastika itself is *not* Nazi. It is still used, in many capacities, in Hindu, Buddhist, and other middle- and far-eastern traditions. For that matter, Paradill, would you have a problem with an army that used the Soviet hammer and sickle? Stalin was an absolute monster, and killed as many Russians as the Germans did. How about the crescent moon and star of Islam? Even excluding groups like Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah and the Taliban, the Saracens slaughtered thousands of Christians during the Crusades. For that matter, what about the sign of the cross? More people in history have died, in one way or another, for the Christian religious ideals than any other reason, I'd wager. Symbolism is just that; symbolism. To automatically recoil in horror from a visual representation of a bad thing, without facing the ugliness by considering its deeper meaning and history, is, if you'll forgive my bluntness, weak minded and cowardly. History is real. Bad things have been done by major organizations who hide behind symbols and images. Get over it. /endrant |
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Post by Sgt. Rock on Mar 11, 2013 18:33:53 GMT -5
See, aside from being too long, I think the Hydra conversion works better. Cut out the bit you built up with plasticard and the hatches, and shove the front of the skidfinz back to the back, almost to the gun mount, and I think it'd look pretty slick. Then again, I'm nowhere near good enough to make that conversion, so I should probably shut my yap.
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Post by Paradill on Mar 11, 2013 18:37:38 GMT -5
The swastika isn't the symbolism of Germany, it is the symbolism of the most shameful part of humanities history. Incorrect. The Swastika is an extremely ancient symbol, representing good fortune, long life, and growth, used by countless African, Indo-European, and Native American cultures. Its co-opting and corruption by the Nazi party is an unfortunate part of history, as it was used by an organization that was the opposite of what it was intended to represent, but the Swastika itself is *not* Nazi. It is still used, in many capacities, in Hindu, Buddhist, and other middle- and far-eastern traditions. For that matter, Paradill, would you have a problem with an army that used the Soviet hammer and sickle? Stalin was an absolute monster, and killed as many Russians as the Germans did. How about the crescent moon and star of Islam? Even excluding groups like Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah and the Taliban, the Saracens slaughtered thousands of Christians during the Crusades. For that matter, what about the sign of the cross? More people in history have died, in one way or another, for the Christian religious ideals than any other reason, I'd wager. Symbolism is just that; symbolism. To automatically recoil in horror from a visual representation of a bad thing, without facing the ugliness by considering its deeper meaning and history, is, if you'll forgive my bluntness, weak minded and cowardly. History is real. Bad things have been done by major organizations who hide behind symbols and images. Get over it. /endrant I knew someone would fall back on that 'extremely ancient symbol of blah blah blah blah' If I enslaved you and your family, did what I wanted to you, anything, tortured you, made you work until your bones broke and flesh withered, then sent you to a gas chamber, all under the symbol of an image of Stone Henge? What then? Is stone henge a symbol of ancient equinox and stargazing practises now? Or is it the symbol of how I am torturing you and everyone you ever loved to death based on the fact that I can, and I don't like the way your eyes are set or how your knees bend or how you write your name? Symbolism changes and is used for different things, when its used for something that evil, it can't just go back. You're looking at history with emotionless eyes. Which is what allows you to be so detached. You imagine it was your family. Imagine it was your grandfather or grandmother telling you about what they went through. What they were put through. About the children that were burned or shot or gassed, the friends they saw die. Imagine it was you and tell me that symbols are just symbols. Stalin was a monster, hitler was a monster, we as a species seem to sprout them and don't even get me started on religion, but you can't argue that because he was one of many it's not ok to be offended at the symbol Hitler used to butcher millions. Edit: I don't like puppies either. Wanna debate over that? |
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Sgt. Rock
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Post by Sgt. Rock on Mar 11, 2013 18:39:55 GMT -5
Like the quarter Irish in my family that was oppressed, tortured, murdered, and enslaved for 800 years under the Union Jack. The English embarked on a campaign of attempted genocide that equally rivalled and far outlasted what the Germans did.
Just saying.
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Post by hacgutt on Mar 11, 2013 18:45:11 GMT -5
Games Workshop is such a rip-off. :3 I prefer the Historical things IMHO anyways :3
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Post by Paradill on Mar 11, 2013 18:45:32 GMT -5
Like the quarter Irish in my family that was oppressed, tortured, murdered, and enslaved for 800 years under the Union Jack. The English embarked on a campaign of attempted genocide that equally rivalled and far outlasted what the Germans did. Just saying. Never said they didn't. So yet again I return to the point of, just because he is one of many, why is it not ok to be offended by the symbol hitler used to commit genocide under? I'm not a patriot and far from 'British'. I am however Welsh and could point to the 'suffering and oppression' my ancestors suffered since the Roman occupation. But I'm not silly and trivial, so I won't. |
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Mar 11, 2013 18:52:51 GMT -5
I would be much more comfortable with red arm bands that had frowny faces painted on them.
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Post by hacgutt on Mar 11, 2013 18:55:45 GMT -5
Wouldn't that be hard to paint though lol :3
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Post by Paradill on Mar 11, 2013 18:55:58 GMT -5
I would be much more comfortable with red arm bands that had frowny faces painted on them. |
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Post by Sgt. Rock on Mar 11, 2013 18:56:47 GMT -5
So you're saying it's okay for me to be offended by a British flag? I didn't say it's not okay, I said it was "weak-minded and cowardly." Poor choice of words, perhaps, but the intent was that instead of offering a knee-jerk reaction of "Ehrmagerd Nazis bad!" you should perhaps consider that Prilladog isn't "glorifying" them, as you say, but exploring an interesting part of history. Perhaps having direct dopplegangers of the High Command might be a touch overboard, but again, people play German armies in Flames of War, and nobody quibbles about that. Just because 40k isn't historical and Nazis aren't a part of of the canon, we can't have it? Part of the hobby is creativity. Part of creativity is re-creation. As I said, until he starts telling us we should kill all the Jews, I'm not real worried about Prilladog painting some toy soldiers to look like Ze Germans.
It's a touchy subject, yes. And yes, I'm detached from it, because nobody in my family suffered from it. But as I said, I'm a quarter Irish, and I don't go around whining about people hanging up the flag of the United Kingdom. Hell, the Germans are absolutely ashamed of what happened, but they've faced it, accepted it, and moved on. The English have pretended it didn't happen. It's a terrible part of history, but for Christ's sake, quit being so thin skinned and let the man explore the past in a safe manner. Yes, I said "safe manner." Warhammer is a game. It's fantasy, pretend, NOT REAL. It allows us to explore this grimdark universe and our own creative and historical influences in a harmless way.
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Post by hacgutt on Mar 11, 2013 18:59:07 GMT -5
^ This. More toys now please :3
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Post by The Hawk! on Mar 11, 2013 19:05:33 GMT -5
Games Workshop is such a rip-off. :3 I prefer the Historical things IMHO anyways :3 At least someone can come here and not pick a fight... You are a good person! As for you two... Wind your necks in.... Paradill, I can see we're you're coming from, and I can see some people may take offence to Nazi Symbolism etc., but I can also see Sgt. Rocks point mate  The fact is, at the end of the day, everyone has or has been accused of Opressing someone! Nato forces are accused of Oppressing the Afghan's, but, we don't class it as that. Hitler was an evil, EVIL man. Yes, you are correct. Stalin, another very evil man. The list could go on and on. But, this is no reason to fight and squabble over Prilladogs army. It may be contovercial, but, its his choice. And to be honest, you two are over shadowing the fact that Prilla is trying to share his work with us. If you would like to continue the argument guys, at least do it over PM? Wow.... I'm acting mature.... WHATS WRONG WITH ME!?!?!?! D: Dave |
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Mar 11, 2013 19:20:45 GMT -5
(Plus Hugo Boss made their uniforms which is awesome). The appeal of their uniforms only makes them more repugnant in my eyes...they knew exactly what they were doing. I think knee-jerk reactions are totally appropriate under these circumstances...not for one moment should we not be reminded that the people some of these models are supposed to represent are the most notoriously awful human beings to have lived in recent history...we absolutely should revile them. So, yeah...I got nothing against you Prilladog, but it has to be said...nazism ain't cool yo. and it has to be said over and over again...least some idiot comes by here and somehow forgets. Anyway, carry on! I like me some nifty conversions as much as the next guy and I am not actually personally offended... I just kind of support those that choose to be. |
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Post by Adkenpachi on Mar 11, 2013 19:20:52 GMT -5
I SAID GLASS OF JUICE NOT GAS THE.... Bad taste. Seriously, their frickin plastic toys... You could always leave the red arm band blank, then you could still use em in places that would otherwise object, no? Aaaaanyway, i love a good converted tank so keep it up... You will have an unbeatable armoured division  Bloody good tacticians on the wrong side in that war! |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2013 19:40:57 GMT -5
@ Paradill: I agree with your argument.
I'm guessing that you see nothing wrong with playing a Nazi army in 40k. But the truth is that this is a highly sensitive topic that caused the deaths of millions of people. Not just Jews but think about all the allied forces that lost their lives to expulse such a facist ideology.
I find it disgusting that you would glorify such a cause. I am not pro israeli but I dont need a lesson in morality to decipher terms such as atrocity, genocide and oppression. The Nazis were a disgusting pockmark on the face of civilisation much like the Hutus in the Rwandan genocide.
If I made a hutu themed Imperial regiment with heraldry etc... I would feel disgusted at myself for being so depraved.
But wtv its 40k and its you models just know that it sickens me because I've seen the interrogation camps they made in france and photos, videos of the horrific crimes against humanity that were done there. I lived in France for 10 years and saw what happened to the ikes of Jean Moulin, Jews and resistance fighters. You are a sick person
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Post by hacgutt on Mar 11, 2013 19:47:00 GMT -5
Does anybody actually read the first post or did they just jump in with there own views?
Prilladog clearly states on the front page: 'My army is not there to glorify what they did - It's an army based around one of the most superior fighting forces the world has seen - Despite what they did.'
Also did you really just say that 'I'm guessing that you see nothing wrong with playing a Nazi army in 40k. But the truth is that this is a highly sensitive topic that caused the deaths of millions of people.' you basically just said that by Prilladog playing with his toys he caused mass genocide...
Seriously Prilladog isn't even saying anything... He even said people who wish to just spout their view point to go away. You even sound like someone who doesn't know about the Nazis but have been told to hate them so you agree with whatever.
Guys this is about his models, not the damn swastika. which for gods sake he hasn't even painted them yet!
>:3
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Post by hacgutt on Mar 11, 2013 19:57:30 GMT -5
Also I see at least 2 Ryza turrets and a Tank Commander Commissar in your bag of goodies :3
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Post by velauzehraptor on Mar 11, 2013 19:58:51 GMT -5
Awesome stuff Prilladog as always, and I see a Siege Drill and a Platform of some sort?
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Mar 11, 2013 19:59:44 GMT -5
but it kind of does glorify them...regardless of his intentions...many of you may not be able to see that, but plenty of others will.
It's like raising a flag then telling people it doesn't mean anything...if you don't tell everyone...some people are just going to start assuming things.
That's just the way it is...
I would ask the people who get up in arms about this sort of thing if it really is worth their time and energy to throw a fit over something like this...
but if the answer is yes then so be it.
Right, right...people should lighten up, I totally agree with that sentiment 100% in almost all situations.
but c'mon man, nazis will always be a bummer.
Prilladog must be prepared for negative criticism and this thread getting out of hand. I think he is though...and so far it seems to be going rather well.
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Post by velauzehraptor on Mar 11, 2013 20:03:27 GMT -5
He did say to leave all those sort of remarks at the door...it's peoples own moral justice wanting to put their 2 cents in, it's not needed. NEEDS MORE OF THIS:  |
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The fact is, at the end of the day, everyone has or has been accused of Opressing someone! Nato forces are accused of Oppressing the Afghan's, but, we don't class it as that. Hitler was an evil, EVIL man. Yes, you are correct. Stalin, another very evil man. The list could go on and on. But, this is no reason to fight and squabble over Prilladogs army. It may be contovercial, but, its his choice. And to be honest, you two are over shadowing the fact that Prilla is trying to share his work with us. 
Bloody good tacticians on the wrong side in that war!
