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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Mar 11, 2013 20:15:20 GMT -5
Right..but neither is painting swastikas on toy soldiers... that is kind of the point. Also...attempting to silence dissidents in a thread about nazism? How fascist of you!  |
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Mar 11, 2013 20:32:00 GMT -5
Okay, first, everyone chill the f*ck out please. Enjoy this picture of an adorable animal.  Isn't he cute? Now that we're all calm, a few things as your friendly neighborhood mod. 1) YES NAZI IDEOLOGY WAS HORRIBLE. No one is debating that, or endorsing it. That said, it must be remembered that not every German soldier was a murderer, and the Heer was a separate part of the German army than the SS, so any army based off of them won't be nazi fanatics from hell to breakfast. Likewise, the Werchmacht, even if they did commit atrocities, was still a highly effective fighting force that did quite a bit to shape modern military tactics. That's a historical fact, whether you like it or not. 2) Symbols can mean different things to different people. Take, for instance, the Stars and Bars here in the US. To some people it means defending states' rights, while to others it's an endorsement of the enslavement of a whole race of people. So if you want to throw a swastika on something, you will offend people no matter why you're putting it on there, and you're just going to have to accept that, rather than trying to argue it's just a symbol and they shouldn't get offended. What you intend is kind of irrelevant when you're using hate-related imagery (which the Nazi swastika is), since it also comes with strong historical connotations linked to terrible events. 3) If you post Nazi-related anything on the internet, you're going to get hate (and in more unfortunate corners of the internet, pro-nazi support), and since you are putting it on a public forum, telling people not to comment on it if they don't approve is hopelessly useless at best. Just sayin', although it seems like you were prepared for a hatestorm anyway. Remember, you're free not to post here about it if you don't want the hate that comes from it. 4) Lastly, PRILLA IS NOT A NAZI AND DOES NOT ENDORSE NAZI IDEOLOGY. If you start making accusations about his character, I'm going to get really, really annoyed. Nobody wants that. Read his first post to see why he's doing this. Granted, putting Nazis in a setting where nazis did not exist before is a bit different than using them in a historical setting for an army, but the Imperium of Man isn't exactly all rainbow farts and sunshine (although their atrocities are fictional, admittedly), and does have a very fascistic bent. Hell, the DKoK and Steel Legion both draw strongly from WWII German themes (DKoK being more WWI, true), so thematically there is precedent. ----------------------------- Now non-mod related stuff. Prilla, given this is Sci-fi fiction, I don't see any harm in using german-themed units and tanks and the like, but using altered imagery to avoid getting crap and urineing off people. Given it's unlikely in the extreme that any historical traces of the Nazis survived into the 41st millennium, it would probably make more fluff in that regard to have something different as well. I honestly have to say dude, it seems like you're making yourself a lighting rod of hate just for gits and shiggles. I'd also avoid using the term "4th Reich", but in this case for pure fluff reasons. Unless you've got a planet of German speakers who use "Reich" to refer to the Imperium as a whole, it would probably be frowned on by the Powers that Be if it was used to refer to a single planetary government, or a subsector, since it sort of implies that the region is separate or independent to some degree to the Imperium at large. Also, the "4th" is a bit puzzling, since there may have been three dozen more Reichs between now and 40k's time frame for all we know, and the Imperium would have no idea they existed. If this planet is on it's own personal 4th Reich, then I'd suggest either changing it to something like 9th or 11th or whatever, since there's no real reason why they would be on their 4th Reich, and it might lessen the hate. On the other hand, if you do want to stick with the Werchmacht theme, why not just use 3rd Reich? It's not going to be a lot different in terms of people boarding the hate train, and it's more historically accurate. Reds |
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Mar 11, 2013 20:42:58 GMT -5
AAaarrgh!!!
It's the rodent that haunts my dreams...
*goes to suffer quietly in a corner.*
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Mar 11, 2013 20:48:38 GMT -5
Okay:
Get rid of the 4th Reich. It's Nazi supremacist imagery and using it on the forums is fornicateing bullnuts.
Paint Swastikas on your models and post pics, and this thread gets nuked.
Continue with your glorious conversions.
/RT out.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Mar 11, 2013 20:49:09 GMT -5
AAaarrgh!!! It's the rodent that haunts my dreams... *goes to suffer quietly in a corner.* I'd post a picture of a kitten, but you'd just try to punch it again. Reds |
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Post by Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four on Mar 11, 2013 20:54:05 GMT -5
AAaarrgh!!! It's the rodent that haunts my dreams... *goes to suffer quietly in a corner.* I'd post a picture of a kitten, but you'd just try to punch it again. Reds I was hoping for a baby seal, personally, but that chipmunk is adorable... ERMAHGERD, SQER! <.< >.> |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2013 20:58:29 GMT -5
Mate, doctrines are fine it's the heraldry, mentality and ideology that disturb me. My interpretation of 40k is a sci fi universe where people can express themselves. I just find it poor taste to idolize the Nazi Party.
As I would any genocidal army (hutus, kmer rouge, etc...)its dangerous to glorify or invest capital in projects that depict such facist ideologies.
The current German army is one of the most advanced, resourceful frces on the world. I just dont understand wy you would choose the 20th century for inspiration when clearly Germany has an incredibly awesome military right now...
I dont know about you ut my grandparents (uncles, grandmothers, etc...) fought against this ideology and witnessed, survived the bombings, etc...
YOU the ones that defend Prillas rights dont know what the Nazi party entailed and exactly what they tried to achieve.
I'm taling about the horrific tests on people. Live caesarians, injections in the pupils of peple like yourself to make their eyes blue. gas chambers. experiments such as forcing women to be f***** by dogs purely to satisfy the perverse pleasure of German officers. concentration camps, etc...
My view of England and America is one of liberty and democracy where people can live in harmony and peace.
Imagine I made a force based on Al Quaida and my centerpiece was the twin towers. wouldnt you feel slightly disturbed?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2013 21:03:11 GMT -5
Or imagin my leman russ squadron was based on 7/11 in london with doubl decker red buses, screaming civilians and fire/smoke eminating from the roofs. Its disgusting to idolise facism in any form means or manner.
Facism is innocent people dying for reasons they did not choose...
Anyway, if you make this force then I will make a force of Taliban/Al Quaida and make my centerpieces the twin towers and the london buses
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Mar 11, 2013 21:09:10 GMT -5
I hate to say this, but seeing a Russ or Chimera Double Decker Bus conversion would actually be kind of awesome. Not your point, I know, but just saying...
Reds
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Post by vegna on Mar 11, 2013 21:15:21 GMT -5
main reason you get hate is people see you using them and you want to use them and creat it.
Vikings is a terrible example, they were far more than raping and pillaging people, they established tons of colonies! they owned half of the UK at one point and became the Normans in France hence the name, norman = norse man. Nazi Germany was still built up around the expanding of the pure german race and removal of "lesser" people.
also Russia had no army in WW2. Russia was not a country! it was part of the USSR.
Yes their just plastic men, then it's just a repro uniform, its just a relic bust of Hitler, it's just a pair of socks made from human hair. If you don't want it to be forgotten then go to a museum, don't update it to the 40k universe (even if they do sort of fit in there...)
If you wanted to make a 40k version of German forces fine, but adding them with SS markings makes them a political statement, you admit they were armed parts of a political party.
I do ww2 re-enactment, I wasn't there but worst thing I've ever heard that wasn't ment nastily:
I got up one morning and was going to the toilet, the event had a fully fitted toilet and shower block. When I got there a guy was walking down dressed full SS, he turned to me and said "showers up stairs mate."
>.< do you think he knew what he was saying? lol
So all that out of the way the current I like the half track but not a fan of the bolter on the front, would stick it on a window. And agree the Russ looks like a vanquisher more than a Tiger, I guess they are the same but I wouldn't of linked it with a tiger unless you painted it orange and black! (see what i did there?)
Oh and even with above I don't hold it against you for it.
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Post by AshotNINJA on Mar 11, 2013 21:25:30 GMT -5
well il start by saying that i think your theme is a fantastic one and haters gonna hate regardless... someones always gonna be offended by whatever, do an IDF themed army and thats gonna offend arabs or whatever... but anyway...
i think the nazis/ war era german army were awesome.
they were the greatest fighting force ever put together, with fighting styles and weapons that outmatched everyone else and were way before their time....
there look, camoflauge schemes, uniforms , insignia was inventive and iconic and is the perfect theme to have for a 40k grimdark future army...
sadly though despite all that their only downfall was mis-managment... if they hadent commited the atrocities and insted used the jews as soldiers, europe would have stayed german speaking...england too...
the imperium basically is future nazis anyway... with commisars , xenos phobia etc , fascism, they are everything that they were ... even the imperiums two headed eagle is very similar to the german eagle... so really your all making nazi armys without realising it .
good stuff prilladog, get it right and your painting/modelling perfect and this will easily be my favorite army theme on this forum.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Mar 11, 2013 21:43:45 GMT -5
Oh dear god Ashot...
Commissars are Soviet.
Double-Headed Eagles are Roman.
Germany could have never invaded Britain. They lacked the naval, air or logistical capability to do so.
Fascism is not Nazism. Nazism is fascism with murderous racial supremacist ideology.
The Germans outmatched nobody aside from the French of 1940 and the gutted Red Army of 1941. After that they subsisted on defensive advantage and inadequate allied logistics.
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Sgt. Rock
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Loungin' like a lizard.
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Post by Sgt. Rock on Mar 11, 2013 23:37:47 GMT -5
So, Ivory, do you have a problem with the Praetorian regiment GW put out with that Gamesday display that looked suspiciously like the Battle of Kambula during the Anglo-Zulu War, where the orks are suspiciously like Zulus (alien, inhuman savages, yes?)
Your view of England and America, while optimistic, is inherently flawed, historically. As an American, I am constantly confronted by the injustices visited by my nation on the Native Americans and African Americans and the imperialist meddlings of the last 150 years. The English spent the better part of a millennium oppressing, enslaving, and otherwise being real arseholes to, at any given time, the Irish, the Indians, the South African natives, the American natives, the Australian Aborigines, the Arabs, the Chinese, and yes, even the Americans. The Romans were imperialistic, violent, oppressive people. So were the Spaniards, the French, the Russians, the Chinese, the Japanese, the Christians, the Muslims, the Aztecs... to point fingers at *just* the Nazis and say "Swastikas and Iron Crosses are offensive!" seems a bit narrow-minded and selective. A Lakota could say the same about the American flag, an Irishman about the Union Jack, an Asatruar of the Cross.
Just because someone is fascinated by a negative part of human history doesn't mean they want to bring that history back. If, as a member of the SCA, I play a Crusader persona, that doesn't mean that I advocate slaughtering Muslims. A CSA Civil War reenactor isn't automatically pro-slavery. We, in the western world, have a very narrow view of history, and very short memories. Yes, what the Nazis did was unspeakable. But the difference between them and the groups I previously mentioned is two things: One, they were more efficient at it, and two, there are still people alive who were there. Step back, for a moment, and view the wider picture of history; to single out one group of [not a very nice person]s just because we remember them better than the others seems injust to me.
But then, as Paradill pointed out, I have a certain objective distance when it comes to history. As a history buff and reenactor myself, I find it much easier to look at something and say, "Yes, that was horrific. But it happened, and we should explore how, why, and what the face of evil looks like. Let's do that after lunch."
Say what you like, at this point. That's my final word on the subject.
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Post by Paradill on Mar 11, 2013 23:53:56 GMT -5
So, Ivory, do you have a problem with the Praetorian regiment GW put out with that Gamesday display that looked suspiciously like the Battle of Kambula during the Anglo-Zulu War, where the orks are suspiciously like Zulus (alien, inhuman savages, yes?) Your view of England and America, while optimistic, is inherently flawed, historically. As an American, I am constantly confronted by the injustices visited by my nation on the Native Americans and African Americans and the imperialist meddlings of the last 150 years. The English spent the better part of a millennium oppressing, enslaving, and otherwise being real arseholes to, at any given time, the Irish, the Indians, the South African natives, the American natives, the Australian Aborigines, the Arabs, the Chinese, and yes, even the Americans. The Romans were imperialistic, violent, oppressive people. So were the Spaniards, the French, the Russians, the Chinese, the Japanese, the Christians, the Muslims, the Aztecs... to point fingers at *just* the Nazis and say "Swastikas and Iron Crosses are offensive!" seems a bit narrow-minded and selective. A Lakota could say the same about the American flag, an Irishman about the Union Jack, an Asatruar of the Cross. Just because someone is fascinated by a negative part of human history doesn't mean they want to bring that history back. If, as a member of the SCA, I play a Crusader persona, that doesn't mean that I advocate slaughtering Muslims. A CSA Civil War reenactor isn't automatically pro-slavery. We, in the western world, have a very narrow view of history, and very short memories. Yes, what the Nazis did was unspeakable. But the difference between them and the groups I previously mentioned is two things: One, they were more efficient at it, and two, there are still people alive who were there. Step back, for a moment, and view the wider picture of history; to single out one group of [not a very nice person]s just because we remember them better than the others seems injust to me. But then, as Paradill pointed out, I have a certain objective distance when it comes to history. As a history buff and reenactor myself, I find it much easier to look at something and say, "Yes, that was horrific. But it happened, and we should explore how, why, and what the face of evil looks like. Let's do that after lunch." Say what you like, at this point. That's my final word on the subject. Despite our differing view points, the fact that your final word on the subject is "lunch" has earned my respect. Basically what RT and Ymmot said. I like the models as models. Paint all your tanks with little Hitler moustaches. |
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Post by yarrick22 on Mar 12, 2013 0:13:23 GMT -5
I'm going to stay out of this ideology battle but I wanted to add to ASHOT's point about the imperium eagle....
has anyone else noticed the similarity of the lightning bolt icon on the old plastic stormtroopers and how similar it is to the "SS" symbols of the waffen ss? GW created these models with similar icons to the german army intentionally. They did this because regardless of your opinion of ww2 german military, it is hard to argue that they weren't aa powerful force. As such, referencing said powerful force symbolizes that your modeled force is powerful too. Its marketing.
Prilladog ~ nice to see your conversions even tho I wouldn't model the nazis personally. I appreciate the value of your efforts with your conversions.
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Post by chapwilliams on Mar 12, 2013 1:18:13 GMT -5
Jesus this place is as heated as a steam room. If prilla wants to keep this politically correct he better not use ANY Nazi insignia on ANY of his modals.
That changes the situation from "My army is inspired by german equipment and tactics from the 1930s and 40s" to "My army is inspired by the nazis and hitler" even if that was not prilla's original intention
Other than that, nice conversions, as far as i know the germans had turrets more to the middle of their tanks.
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Post by Ogryn Crazy! on Mar 12, 2013 2:56:17 GMT -5
Basics people
Nazi ideology bad!
German army badass!
Germany could have won if "he" didn't take on two fronts at the same time, ie England and Russia.
As a theme, your brave, because people will always over react.
Models looking good, let's see some paint schemes.
Could always have a Primaris Psycher as Himmler...
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Post by Cosmic on Mar 12, 2013 4:22:08 GMT -5
Everyone shut up arguing or continue over PM!
It's clear some of us are interested in this army of Prilladogs so leave us be to discuss it and enjoy it.
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Post by Ogryn Crazy! on Mar 12, 2013 4:26:33 GMT -5
I concur, if you don't like it, then leave it.... Simples mh!
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Post by chapwilliams on Mar 12, 2013 4:31:45 GMT -5
Ahh.... finally, no more banter.
I think ig tanks loo a little too soviet, because their turrets are at the front of their chassis. are you going to alter their position, prilladog?
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Post by Paradill on Mar 12, 2013 4:43:11 GMT -5
I concur, if you don't like it, then leave it.... Simples mh! It's that sort of attitude that led to the rise of the nazi party. (This is a joke, please refer to google if you're unsure of what a joke is) I like the tanks. And still think Adolf moustaches would be a great addition beneath every gun barrel. |
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Post by Adkenpachi on Mar 12, 2013 5:20:05 GMT -5
We even have little skulls kn our helmets...
Are..are we the bad guys?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2013 6:28:31 GMT -5
Sorry buddy, I got abit carried away with myself. There your models and this is why 40k rocks, because we can plan and model personal projects. War is a grim business where terms such as good vs evil cannot truly apply because everyone is a justified hero fighting for the right cause in their own eyes.
Anyway, a new modelling project on this forum is always a plus
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Post by The Hawk! on Mar 12, 2013 6:51:04 GMT -5
We even have little skulls kn our helmets... Are..are we the bad guys? And you all call ME a Heretic  Watch out for the Commissars Adken.... They'll be looking for you  Dave |
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Post by treadiculous on Mar 12, 2013 7:39:19 GMT -5
Cool looking conversions dude!
In regards the other elements of this discussion I'm at a loss - I play Company of Heroes a lot and often play as the Axis, the online games wouldn't work if people only played allies as there would be no one to fight against...
Its a game - so is 40k.
Its a british game, which is why there are NO good guys, just different flavoured facist religious extremists and xenos.
The important bit here is 'GAME'...
I also think we are better to remember history than censer the bad bits because they might offend.
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Watch out for the Commissars Adken.... They'll be looking for you 
