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Post by Paimon on Oct 9, 2017 16:55:04 GMT -5
Just look at angler fish.
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Post by Trickstick on Oct 10, 2017 10:16:43 GMT -5
I always thought legions 2 and 11 were women and something went wrong at some point. It kind of makes sense that the 2nd legion would be, as The Emperor tried to make a female legion after a male one. Who knows though? It does give enough scope to create your own legions and chapters, which is the entire point of leaving those two legions redacted. You could even have one loyalist and one traitor and take female chaos marines.
Just an idea I had, what if female space marines were not infertile? That would be a huge problem for The Emperor and would give ample reason to purge the whole project. Can't have your elite troops be able to get out from under your control, could be rather troublesome.
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Post by Paimon on Oct 10, 2017 16:43:22 GMT -5
That's both reasonable, and a decent reason for them to be purged. Even if one or both of the Primarchs had kids before being found it might be sufficient to scrap the idea.
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Post by emptyhat on Oct 11, 2017 13:32:14 GMT -5
Primarchs breeding with Primarchs could be especially bad, though I imagine all the known Primarchs were sterile.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Oct 12, 2017 21:12:48 GMT -5
The true story behind primaris marines comes to light.
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Post by guardsmantorres on Oct 13, 2017 8:40:13 GMT -5
I think personally the concept of saying all of a sudden there have always been female space marines is quite corny and lazy as a way of implimenting female space marines. It would be better to simply confine power armour females to sisters of battle and give them some geneseed. They do not have to be "injected" into space marine chapters to meet the concept of powered armour females with gene enhancement. Its one thing to have ones own equivalent of something but to have a desire to needlessly integrate it into anothers is kinda silly. Sisters with geneseed sounds fine to me but they dont have to be "space marines".
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Post by Trickstick on Oct 13, 2017 11:33:55 GMT -5
I think that the problem with female space marines is that they would largely cannibalise the point of the Sororitas, if not in fluff then in theme. Sisters are largely "power armoured women" when you look at the army. With female marines, what are the Sororitas? Please note, I'm largely talking from a marketing perspective; I'm not saying you can't have two female armies.
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Post by Paimon on Oct 13, 2017 17:05:47 GMT -5
Female Space marines would basically make the Sisters of Battle female Black Templars, I agree. The issue is that Sisters as the only female humans represented by the models for as long as they were, and being represented as fairly fetishy at times means that it's a bit of a contentious issue.
Of course if women were better represented elsewhere in the models, then it wouldn't be such a big deal that there are no female space marines. Even if all they did was include some female heads in the Cadian model sprues, then a huge number of people would be sated.
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Post by guardsmantorres on Oct 13, 2017 17:40:49 GMT -5
Given the amount of female characters presented in all the black library fiction (both heresey era but especially 40k era) it really is a shame they havent included more human female models, especially inquisitorial and guard. I like the approach victoria miniatures takes when releasing their proxy guard regiments by both making a male and female set per regiment. I think 40k fiction has done well in my opinion to represent females in a relatively equal footing as its males. There is none to vague hints of sexualization in the novels ive read (so far). I just would never want the lore to be compromised to accommodate a niche market. I welcome additions to the lore but not cheap retcons. If either are to be done i would like them to be up to par and of high quality. In the past 25 years or so there have only been two signicficant retcons to the lore, the events in the original 13th black crusade and the necron background fluff, it can be argued that its more of a addition of material than a retcon.
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Post by Paimon on Oct 13, 2017 19:59:01 GMT -5
Yeah. I'm more for female models than female Space Marines.
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Post by Machine Gun Kelly on Oct 14, 2017 14:21:22 GMT -5
I do not agree that it is a problem or silly to change lore just to make female space marines. GW have changed lore several times if it fits their visions or sales quota. My issue is how GW have made the changes. Good changes were introduction of Necrons (Sanctuary 101 battle rep) and to certain extend introduction of Tau. Bad ways to change lore were introduction of the Storm Raven. Don´t forget that GW just have made remarkable changes to lore which turn most of the old lore upside down. The Imperium have always been declining in technology level, suddenly there are new super duper SM with their own vehicles and what not. Dark Eldars and Eldar working together if I understand it correctly? In the old lore that was impossible, but GW changed lore to make it possible.
The whole genetics discussion are actually quite pointless to me. The technology have been waning for 10 000 years. If we assume the game is set in our "reality" it means that it grew for 28 000 years before that. It is technology that borders to magic to us. But we know from lore that the imperium have sophisticated genetic security scanners that read DNA etc. And we can assume that VIP of the imperium are surrounded by them. Enter the Callidus assassin. It can take on the apparence of an individual (changing body form, body fat level, growing beard and hair, changing eye colour ...). As it is capable of assassing VIP it has to change it´s DNA to pass the gene scans. There are also a lore story about an Callidus assassin who kidnapped children by swallowing them to smuggle them out of the buildning. This means major internal changes to its body. We can easily assume that the imperium can do anything they want with the human genes. Even if they no longer understand what it is they are doing.
Do I think it is important to implement female space marines? Yes. Why? Because if some one wants to use them in their games and the opponent opposes, they could just show the lore where there are female SM and say; Shut up and play the game!
Personally I think that the most fun way to implement female SM are to sneak them in as legends. In the lore make some small stories about ancient SM heroes with female names. In pictures with groups of SM add one in the background with a female head (but don´t talk about it or answer any questions). And slowly work up the acceptanse that there could be female SM.
Another way is to push on with the ongoing changes of the WH40k universe. Perhaps that as a part of these large changes Cawl have been working with chapters of SoB to give them the same gifts as the SM?
I also agree that there needs to be more female in the guard range. Perhaps it is time to make a new plastic regiment. The Valhallans would be my choice. Just add a full set of female heads to each box and they are done. There is no need to make more feminine bodies as no one can see what´s beneath those great coats any way.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Oct 15, 2017 0:00:12 GMT -5
To be fair, the two factions of Space Elves working together is sort of drawn out of the established lore of Ynnead, and not everyone from both factions are on board. It's roughly analogous to a socio-religious schism more than some sort of super team-up. They're getting even more fragmented.
Anyway, I'd love to see a re-cast of Cadians with less silly proportions (i.e. closer to the command squad than the troop box) with male and female head options. Maybe they could chuck in meltaguns and plasma guns too.
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Post by Machine Gun Kelly on Oct 16, 2017 2:24:35 GMT -5
But it was a change to the lore to create something that was unheard of in the former lore. Ok, I´ll take another example of lore change. The Wulfen in the Space Wolves army. They have canine formed legs, fangs and wolf featured faces, A hybrid between wolf and SM. The lore was adapted for us to accept them as a natural part of the SW chapter. My Point is, changing lore isn´t uncommon by GW and they have done it several times for different reasons. Some Changes I have considered stupid and some changes I have considered brilliant. BTW I still say Imperial guard.
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Post by The Hawk! on Oct 21, 2017 4:41:30 GMT -5
BTW I still say Imperial guard. And quite rightly so....We are not a Latin military wing of the Vauxhall company....
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Post by irishbiker on Oct 31, 2017 9:19:19 GMT -5
I'm still new to warhammer, but this is something that bothers me a great deal in regards to the guard. The lore is packed with female soldiers and even whole regiments so why not represent them in the models. As was said above all they'd need is a few heads, even today most soldiers are indistinguishable in battle gear regardless of gender.
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Post by Melissia on Nov 6, 2017 7:34:02 GMT -5
Because that would require effort from GW. A lot of Guard sculpts are still pretty ancient.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Nov 6, 2017 18:38:41 GMT -5
Well, it's not like they aren't willing to put in effort. Just not on IG.
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Post by that1guy on Jan 18, 2018 22:20:51 GMT -5
the Black Library is all ready too politically correct for my tastes. Dan Abnett has women killing men with a single strike in un-armed combat like these ladies were raised in some shoalin temple. All of the women are stunningly beautiful and just disgusted with the thought of men being physically attracted to them, I remember some where in the last chancer's book that female twin did some shoalin eye gouge because some man reacted to her walking around in lingerie. After physically crippling him (with out so much as breaking a sweat) she went on to lecture all in ear shot about how disgusting and pathetic he was for being attracted to her... yet, no fault was to be layed upon her for dressing like a playboy spread. It's already in line with this stupid, out dated politically correct agenda forced upon modern western culture. Are you people stuck in the 90's or something? Move on. Feminism is in its death thoes anyway, and I will show you why right now.
Kristen; "Likewise I just get pissed off at the specious arguments used against it, it really shouldn't be that big of a deal." <~ She's getting pissed off about something she admits should not be that big of a deal. It's the hypocrisy ingrained in all feminist's that is killing the movement.
Exhibit B: through out this conversation both Kristen & Melissa have made several arguments towards women being able to join the ranks of the Astartes. How many have they made towards men joining the SoB's? NONE, not one. EQUALITY indeed.
Now, am I discouraging them from joining the game? Certainly not! I would be delighted to get a game in with either of these ladies (assuming they posses the manners in order to be considered ladies, but I digress.)
Am I saying she can't order a bulk load of green stuff and sculpt her own female Astartes? In fact, I'm pretty sure some one has already beat her to the punch and began mass producing an alternate female astartes mini's.
Am I saying no military allow's women into their ranks? That would just be not factual in argument. The shield maiden's of viking culture, Russia in WW2 had several highly decorated female soldiers serving in the ranks of the red army, the list goes on.
Yet, there are military organizations that do not allow women into their ranks or restrict women from enlisting under certain Occupational Specialties's & for very real, very legitimate reasons.
Now one of these fair gaming maiden's (or their politically correct white knight) will probably argue; "yeah there are reason's in the real world but that doesn't matter in 40k," and I will argue that yes, it does. Because even in fiction (regardless if it's fantasy, Sci-fi, horror, ect.) even in a scene where a man (or woman) is riding a dragon the author has to try and make it seem realistic because that is how you get the reader to succumb to complete immersion, that is how you make them lose track of the reality around them and make them lost in your literature.
Sure, I have served along a few women (very few) in the USMC who could carry a full combat. Perform the male equivalent of a physical fitness test. Even get berated by a superior with out breaking into tears. Yet, such women are one in a million. Mutants unique from the vast majority of females and when you push these arguments that "all women can do what men do," or "any woman can do that if she puts her mind to it," you take away from the fact that these women are in fact unique, so stop using them as abject evidence to support your claim. Because at the end of the day the majority of women cannot fight a USMC grunt, and thank God most are smart enough not to ever try.
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Post by cheminhaler on Jan 19, 2018 8:13:09 GMT -5
Using terms such as 'mutant' or 'exhibit A' is quite demeaning. You could say women in special forces are a 'rarity' because of the tough training but they aren't unheard of. I'm male and I don't have what it takes to be in the military but anyone can learn, it just takes longer to learn , the older you get.
Last year the media was full of reports of Syrian Kurdish women fighting against one of the most dangerous terrorist networks ever created. And they did it because they were the last line of defence, fighting on their home territory.
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Post by andres on Jan 19, 2018 9:31:39 GMT -5
Well while I agree that certain terms where not perfectly descriptive I can testify that NOT anyone can learn. During my small army service (draft not proffesional) I worked in the recruitment office. The number of rejections on grounds of health, body measurement, IQ testing, psychological conditions and a myriad other factors was shocking (and we are talking about average drafted men meant for menial support duties not frontline troops). Simply put many people cannot do it. Now where there are many female units in modern times that desplayed great ability (e.g. nightwitches, peshmerga militia ...) and it would be fun to see what gw could make working on that, it is a little extreme to aspire to a 50/50 split while not drawing from some historical precedant would almost be out of character (I mean GW has made most regiments out of pre existing prototypes). Bottom line, can we have some red army look alike ladies with sniper rifles? Also are we all that keen to see this kind of controversy coming into 40k ?
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Post by RedCuffs on Jan 19, 2018 15:10:16 GMT -5
I don’t see the point of GW making female Space Marines. A person, man or woman starts the process of genetic and physiological transformation into whatever is required to be an Astartes and we all know what the resulting image is ... we’ve been looking at pictures of them for decades.
So if a woman goes through the process she’ll eventually end up 8 foot tall, sporting designer stubble on a squared jawline and topping their rugged facial features with a snazzy float-top.
GW already make heads like that and so there ... we’ve already got our female space marines if we want them.
Just call your selected female mini “Marine Wendy” or “Sergeant Caitlyn” or something just to let everyone know that she started off life as a woman.
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Post by that1guy on Jan 19, 2018 16:22:15 GMT -5
Using terms such as 'mutant' or 'exhibit A' is quite demeaning. You could say women in special forces are a 'rarity' because of the tough training but they aren't unheard of. I'm male and I don't have what it takes to be in the military but anyone can learn, it just takes longer to learn , the older you get. Last year the media was full of reports of Syrian Kurdish women fighting against one of the most dangerous terrorist networks ever created. And they did it because they were the last line of defence, fighting on their home territory. I mean, Psylocke is a mutant and, rawr! <3 A rose by any other name... Slaanesh has successfully made a few female space marines, but more are twisted into a futa like state.
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Post by Paimon on Jan 19, 2018 17:17:46 GMT -5
that1guy, are you trolling or are you actually seriously comparing no female space marines to no male Sisters of Battle?
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Post by that1guy on Jan 19, 2018 17:49:13 GMT -5
I am playing devil's advocate & yeah, I am actually comparing no female space marines to no sisters of battle to high light the hypocrisy of this overly politically correct conversation.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Jan 19, 2018 17:51:21 GMT -5
Y'know, I'm just gonna lock this whole thread so we can move on with our lives.
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