|
Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Jul 19, 2007 7:27:10 GMT -5
so I wanted to see what was going on with the space marine community so I cruised over to a forum that is for space marines what the IGMB is for the guard and oh man, by the time I left I literally wrote a letter to GW and emailed it off asking them to basically stop committing corporate suicide thru the poor decisionmaking that their rule writing department is making. it's really shaping up that eldar are the new god army while everything else is just sucking worse with their new codexes (ok well, it's been 3 marine codexes now - dark angels, blood angels, and now the rumors for chaos and space marines (again) coming down the pipes). evidently the new codex space marines is going to follow in the same vein as the blood and dark angels 'dexes and is going to be nothing but a nerf stick beatdown that's just gonna leave marines as a whole gimped except for maybe the black templars who still have the old style codex. oh, and space wolves, but I wouldn't plan on making any of them because they are supposed to get a redone codex finally not too long after the marine dex redo (which subsequently has the marine community basically hailing the death of the space wolves rulewise). whats so bad you ask? you know all the fancy traits that they gave the space marines to encourage them to get all diverse? well all of a sudden all those traits are allegedly gonna be gone - all the modelling everyone put into making flavorful armies is gonna go to waste - 6 dread armies will be illegal, bike armies illegal, extra jump squads? illegal. apothecaries in each squad with those nice powerfist conversions (like me)? illegal. ccws and bolter marines mixed in all the squads? illegal. the list goes on too - command squads are looking to be 5 man squads, no more 8 or 9 man normal squads, it's 5 or 10 only. got cool veteran sgts with neat wargear? they're getting beat to death with the generic stick and all those options are going the way of the dinosaur so the word is. basically, if you want to play a marine army that has that ultimate generic feel and no personality other than a paint scheme, then codex space marines redo will be for you. any of us who like some identity to our armies however are pretty much screwed. it's sad, but I literally thought about looking at warmachine after getting done reading the space marine news boards, and the even sadder thing is that I'm TOTALLY not the first to have that thought - warmachine is more popular than 40k and WHFB combined at my local shop. when I first started playing 40k it was the only thing in town. now it's mostly warmachine - sad stuff but till GW pulls their heads out of their you know whats then it seems like it's just gonna be the slow slide to obscurity for 40k which really really makes me sad. at least the guard get new models but not new rules! we still rock! I'm pretty much of the mind that it's gonna suck so bad when we get a new codex though unless they take us in a totally different direction than all these new books (which means that they basically leave us alone heh). thank god no one's talking about a new guard codex on the horizon
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2007 8:15:57 GMT -5
Well all I can say is that I am shocked they are going down this road but I am not surprised as well though.. if they didnt make a new book then they cant make a flavour of the month army cause well lets face it, its the new rules that cause the stir in the communities nest to generate new income and that new shiny army for someone to buy.. however as pointed out it seems that this new move to make Space Marine Vanilla once more is a sure fire way to make the community quite angry.
Thankfully my Emperor's Children army wont be affected too much.. only thing I abused in the old codex was the free champion within squads of 6, and my uber deamon lord.. now I guess that is out and just need to finally get around to making a proper lord, and redo my raptors as well since they were nerfed for ECs last time but are back this time.. go figure..
Also I am looking at the Priviteer press models.. not because I hate GW but more on that they are something different.. they have a different style to them and call me old fashion but the metal models have that feel to them that the plastics just cant compare to.. am thiking more along the lines of Hordes myself ( I love the Trollblood models ) so might get stuck into them soon enough.. who knows..
Just wait to see what happens in the future.. who knows all these changes might bring forth a new type of player, and or lose a ton of players to the point that GW actually does a brand new, new codex to cover the new codex they just did that covered the mistakes of the old new codex that doesnt even have time to let their ink dry before they are rewritten by their rules team..
Cheers Gris
|
|
|
Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Jul 19, 2007 8:21:54 GMT -5
heheh *edit* yeah I like some of the khador warjacks but there's just nothing like a good old fashion space marine
|
|
|
Post by Mabus on Jul 19, 2007 8:33:56 GMT -5
I agree with what Grisnik says about metal and plastic. There isn't the same feel to plastic. I also think the UK White dwarf has gone down hill, it hasn't been the same since Guy hailey left. Oh, and TB are you sure all this is true. it might just be a rumour, let's hope! I can't think what motive GW would have for making all these changes? What is the world coming to?
|
|
|
Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Jul 20, 2007 5:29:35 GMT -5
all that stuff I was rambling on about is basically considered fact for some time now at the premier space marine forum in all the intarweb. it's still >technicaly< rumor, but it sounds so totally like GW. whatever, I bought me a nice warmachine mini today and you know what? it had practically 0 flashing on it and was really nice. granted they're still getting the molding processes down a bit so they require some gap filling but for a young company I'm really impressed with the quality of piece that I picked up today.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2007 6:46:45 GMT -5
I keep reading on the forums that the PP models are top notch.. and since they are in metal the detail is a lot more as well which I do miss on some of my sculpts..
I am really tempted to pick up a starter set or 2 for hordes though.. just dunno if I can justify shelling out 200 ytl for the 2 starter kits and a rulebook so that I can get the models and be able to play as well.. will have to see though and go from there..
Also yeah from what i have read on the web most of the rumors are true or close to it.. when you considering what they have done to the last 2 codex releases and the plans for the chaos one then it seems logical to see the death of individualized smurf forces as we know them and be back to the days of ultramarines with spiffy paint jobs..
Cheers Gris
|
|
|
Post by Woz on Jul 20, 2007 8:10:45 GMT -5
GW's constant rule changing is why I now only use one army.
I started off with Dark Angels (2nd ed) and spent a lot of time (and money) building the army with lots of conversions only to have them made useless when 3rd ed came out. My 3rd ed Tyranids were made useless when 4th ed came out.
The only army that's remained constant are my IG and I've only needed to make minor changes for each edition.
|
|
|
Post by Mabus on Jul 21, 2007 3:42:16 GMT -5
This thread was not started to compare Warmachine (or what ever you call it!) and Warhammer 40K. You should be ashamed of yourselves! I am really dissapointed in you Turtleboy, call yourself a moderator! Pah! You should be supporting GW, not slagging it off, if your not happy with the new rules, don't play SM!
|
|
|
Post by thefishki345 on Jul 21, 2007 4:02:05 GMT -5
yes, true mabus but GW really is sinking to a new low, most of us love the foundations of 40k but then when GW goes and comes up with new stuff and totally screw everything up and make everyone have to change their armies just so they can make more money. Dont they think that by making everyone have to change their armies means alot of players will quit, dont they see that? It has happened in the past, why cant they learn from their mistakes and just release new models/expansions not new rules.
|
|
|
Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Jul 21, 2007 6:39:44 GMT -5
don't worry mabus, I'll still be a good friendly neighborhood moderator, and I have alot of experience with 40k and the IG especially. I'm still up for playing games of 40k but I've just decided to stop investing in it. so many people love what 40k was and remember fondly the days of old - it's really a shame they can't put all that back into the game. anyways, I'm really happy with my 'fix' as far as keeping involved with wargaming but you're right in reminding us that this isn't a comparison thread between warmachine and 40k. I'll leave out the side chat as far as that stuff goes and file it into the proper threads down in the 'other games' forum
|
|
|
Post by Woz on Jul 21, 2007 17:22:43 GMT -5
Gw's problem is that people always find holes in the rules or exploit oversights in the army lists.
When GW make a new codex they try and design rules that allow a certain amount of flexability when you make your army list. But they do it as gamers trying to build a balanced force, unfortunatly you get power gamers who just want to make the ultimate unbeatable army and they'll exploit any little loophole they can.
When 3rd ed came out just about every Smurf player mounted their SM's in Rhinos because someone invented "Rhino Rush" which allowed you to get into assault in the first two turns of a game.
|
|
|
Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Jul 21, 2007 19:44:12 GMT -5
why do they continually dumb down the rules and available options though? I mean, ofcourse there IS the infamous quote by jervis johnson that essentially goes: "my kid couldn't understand the rules so I decided we'd rewrite the game" which makes me wonder that when his kid grows up a bit more and gets bored with the simplified rules, will the rules get complex again just so his kid can enjoy the game? kinda goes backwards from the maxim 'the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few' but then again, that kinda seems like it MAY be how GW is working these days (the needs of the FEW outweighing the needs of the many). I dunno, I honestly didn't create this thread as a GW bashing thread, but I was just frusterated. I probably shouldn't have made this thread in the first place so I'm gonna stop posting in it and let it drop on a parting note, there are alot of good things in 40k and it's a wonderful wargame. if you want epic scaled battles with armor and infantry and a great format with which to practice strategy and tactics. there's no better game for large battles in the whole world so if you can put up with the gripes some of us have with the rules side of the game then it's a top notch grade A deal. there's nothing in the entire world as awesome as a full sized 40k army facing off with another. Immuna leave it at that
|
|
|
Post by Cadian 117 on Jul 21, 2007 23:08:52 GMT -5
I never really used any traits for the marines,They seemed too pointless and made you good against certain armies for me. I just used VANILLA marines and fell in luv wit em. I dont mind a redone 'dex but I do understand where your coming from. Black templar are the cheesiest marines thou.
|
|
|
Post by twerd on Jul 21, 2007 23:20:03 GMT -5
um guys the guys from the space marine forum may be oversagerating a bit here they have had two new codexs that while they do have the generic feel is becuade they are chapter focus the new codex won't have generics in them becuase thats bad for bussience.
|
|
|
Post by syphon on Jul 22, 2007 4:56:05 GMT -5
Whatever happens, don't just run off and start playing privateer press games. I lost my gaming group over that bloody thing.
|
|
|
Post by Cadian 117 on Jul 22, 2007 11:21:14 GMT -5
Ya,Really fluff wise marines really dont have much character. They are al almost from the ultramarines geneseed. Buisness wise they will never change it. They wont change it because like twerd said it will hurt them..........badly.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2007 0:28:58 GMT -5
ok, well heres my opinion: I think that the reamarks made by turtleboy (and i by no means am bashing him) my be a LITTLE extreme. 2 new SM dexes? im not sure about that. Iv only been a 40k player for 2 years and have mostly stuck to smaller games with my friend and games at the local GW, and i think the rules for the game itself are fully functional. i have had some gripes with the necrons, to me thier overpowered, but the other armies i have faced seen to work pretty well.
Please dont hate me for saying this, i am after all a casual fan, i know some of yu guys and gals are pretty hardcore and have been doing this for a while. but i just think that we need to get to grips and not let ourselves conjure up horrible scenarios of wargaming doom
|
|
|
Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Jul 28, 2007 2:50:18 GMT -5
yeah, I can agree with that. mainly I was just venting my frusteration with the overall direction of the game (albeit my venting was pretty poorly worded). like I said though, 40k is a great game and it's the only thing going for epic sized tabletop battles. it's definately a huge entity in the gaming market and I'm thankful for its presence, whether I like some of their practices or not, because without them, there would be basically no tabletop wargaming - they put it on the map so yeah, hats off to that. my complaints with the GW people are only about their rules and how they seem to be on a trend of dumbing them down - I think the reverse should be done. more options equals more fun in my opinion but looking at it with hindsight, I can see why they might be doing this: simplifying the rules for apocolypse. the bigger a game you play the less rules you want to fight over or have to look up. if they make the game simpler then you can run larger battles in less time. I wouldn't doubt if that was the exact reason for the rules changes but I'm talkin' out my butt. I guess I'm really a fan of smaller battles that I can play in a single day without my back going out from the stress of moving lots of units hehe.
|
|
|
Post by Mabus on Jul 28, 2007 3:26:08 GMT -5
I understand what you are all saying, what bill555 says about necrons especially! I just think that 40K might just be going through a rough patch. It's happened before and it will happen again. As long as there are people spending time and money on the hobby they enjoy, GW will keep trying to improve the hobby. Wheather or not they are succesful is another matter! and anyway, anything that will deter people using marines is a plus in my book. The thing I hate most about them is that they are so easy to play with. A retard could lead them to victory against a tactical genius using whatever other army. The SM stats are so hugely overpowerd! they're great guns, great armour, great tanks, great leadership! They make me so mad! although I can't say too much, I collect Black Templars! - glares angringly at cadian 117 -
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2007 12:41:17 GMT -5
well im glad people are agreeing with me on the necron thing, my friend plays necrons and he beats me like everytime! Also i agree fully on what turtleboy said about the dumbing down of the rules. what i want to know is what ever happened to race special rules? it seems to me that all the new codices (yes that is the actual plural) have no special rules, which sucks cause they really spice up games and make them more unique. deamonhunters have a whole page on thier special rules vs. deamons, but wheres the ones for the tau empire or imperial guard? maybe they dont need any but i think they should.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2007 12:52:59 GMT -5
All i can sayon this subject once again is what probably already been said already... that the rules have been dumbed down a bit.. but then again I am not so much a hardcore player but an old player I guess you could call me.. been playing this for almost 14 yrs now.. seen way too many codex updates happen over the years, and I still have the original Ork codex from when it was a NEW CODEX!!!!! thats how long I have been playing this game I am not sure if the core rules being simplier is a bad or good thing.. it does make the game easier to play but it has taken away some of the special aspects of the game ( vehicle ramming anyone?? VDR??? Firing into combat ) things that made the game different and have a bit more of an edge.. however it also required you to be an expert at the rules to understand it and to have a ton of reference sheets on hand to remember things.. I just wish that over the past 14 yrs more armies got updates instead of the current number of SM codeces being re released over and over again while neglecting the rest of the hobby.. Ok rant over.. continue to your basic trolling again.. Gris
|
|
|
Post by Cadian 117 on Aug 13, 2007 21:47:34 GMT -5
Hey man I could go all day with the Black Templar. Anyways I agree with the dumbing down awell. But I am used to everything being simple I have only played for 4 years. I quite like a simpler faster game. 1000 pts is about the highest I wanna go before it gets too Crazy and thats with my marines not just guard (Hint:guard+big game=lots of minis,Marines+Big game=alot of minis with my list). So I agree but simple isnt always bad either. I cant wait to do my Chaos army this september and that my last army. So I rest my case.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2007 23:19:56 GMT -5
Ya 1000 points is my benchmark as a guard player. Dont get me wrong, I wont stop after (just try and do that!) but i would much rather have a 1000 point army of IG i could customize to my tactical predicament each battle than a set 1500 or 2000 point army
|
|
|
Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Aug 22, 2007 18:59:59 GMT -5
ok, I'm all better - I'm no longer mad at GW. I just had to let it sink in that they are probably doing all the simplifying to make apocolypse and all the big-game 40k play a viable thing. took me a while to get over my 'they're neutering the things I love most about this game!' issue, but in the end, they're just evolving it into a new game; one that's simplified, streamlined, and presses the limits of the scale of the battlefield to new heights due to the finely tuned, fast and furioius rules they're bringing into the game. I gotta admit though, that I feel lucky to be a guard player due to the venerable-ness of our codex and pray that GW forgets to update our codex for many years to come...and when they do, that they don't simplify it too much - I really like the options we have (hey afterall, we already basically do the required full 10 man squads!). anyway, I'm back, and I'm bad
|
|
|
Post by Mabus on Sept 3, 2007 6:23:45 GMT -5
It's good to have you back TB. ;D
|
|