About Commisars

[Deleted]

Commisars is something i like from IG, is one of the motiv for me to star playing imperial guard.

Well going for play; what are the tactical uses of the Commisar? power guys with power weapons and fists?

I was thinking about making my own doctrine with them "independent Comissars" do this have uses? how are the practical uses?

[angelusmortis]

The biggest use of Commisars is to make it so your units dont break. The summary execution rule comes in handy when a Commisar is assigned to a 50 man Conscript platoon.

[Deleted]

My god... that's just too... incredible to think about.
50 greenhorns led by a commie!?!?!
Jeez!

[Deleted]

independant commissars might not be a good idea...theyll get shot at and really wont make a difference in battle. The best way to use a commissar is to assign him to a conscript platoon

[ssgtdude (M.I.A)]

Just remember that the minimum number of commissars that you would need if you did not use independent commissars is two in order to assign one to your conscripts.

One must go to your HQ the second can go to the conscripts which you would designate as your first troop choice (No normal IG platoon with JSO).

However, if you have a JSO platoon one must be assigned to him before going to your conscripts.

My own army I have to take four sometimes five (Depends on the army list).
HSO
JSO x 2
conscripts
Ogryn (side note Marge hates it when a commissar is assigned to her unit).

[Turtleboy(AWOL)]

fuzziness said:

independant commissars might not be a good idea...theyll get shot at and really wont make a difference in battle. The best way to use a commissar is to assign him to a conscript platoon

when was the last time you had an independent character actually get shot at? personally it's been a long time. if the commissar isn't the closest model to the enemy unit firing, you have little to worry about.

ssgtdude said:

Just remember that the minimum number of commissars that you would need if you did not use independent commissars is two in order to assign one to your conscripts.

One must go to your HQ the second can go to the conscripts which you would designate as your first troop choice (No normal IG platoon with JSO).

However, if you have a JSO platoon one must be assigned to him before going to your conscripts.

you must have a regular IG infantry platoon for every conscript platoon you field. this means >3< is the minimum number of commissars to get one into a unit of your choice. one for the command hq, one for the platoon hq for platoon #1, and the third to go wherever you want (as long as you don't have another command squad on the table, since there must be 1 commissar per officer, with the leftovers being able to go where you want them).

[ssgtdude (M.I.A)]

Thanks for teh correction Turtleboy. We all make mistakes at times.

[angelusmortis]

fuzziness said:

independant commissars might not be a good idea...theyll get shot at and really wont make a difference in battle. The best way to use a commissar is to assign him to a conscript platoon

The good thing about Independant Commissars is that you circumvent the Advisors rule. In other words, you can take one and put him where you want.

[Turtleboy(AWOL)]

ssgtdude said:

Thanks for teh correction Turtleboy. We all make mistakes at times.

no worries bro ^_^

[Deleted]

you cant put a commisar in with your ogryns unless you take the independant commisar doctrine. nor can they go in with hardened vets. i used to run a list where i had the veteran doctrine, so three squads of vets, each with a priest and a commisar. they were known to take out ork warbosses and assault marines. then i found out i was playing with an illegal list due to the purchase of army builder. my friends weren't to pleased

[Turtleboy(AWOL)]

that's true - I read that today too..the problem is in the 'advisors' rule...

Codex Quote for the Advisors rule:

For each type of advisor, one must be allocated to the command HQ. Any others of that type are then allocated to platoon HQ squads. If all command and platoon HQ's have an Advisor of a given type then the remainder are individually assigned to Infantry squads, Armored Fist squads or Storm Trooper squads. Unattached advisors may not be used.

[ssgtdude (M.I.A)]

Turtle boy is right. Ogryn can and should have a commissar because they are classified as Infantry. (See page 87 of the big rule book)

Hardened Vets also qualify as infantry. Read teh big book to see what is and what is not.

All men on foot including Ogryn and Ratlings.

IF you want them to be in the Ogryn you have to first satisfy the HQ, the JSO and then they are assigned out from there.

1 to your HQ
1 Platoon Jso
1 Conscript
1 Ogryn

= four Commissar legal list.

Also do not forget that you buy the Commissar as a unit themselves. They just don't have to follow unit deployment and are set into the squads. Add in the Priest the same way. It can be done this way.

[Turtleboy(AWOL)]

I hate to contradict you ssgtdude, but the way I read it 'Infantry squads' were referring to 'Infantry Platoon squads.' the reason they probably didn't state it like this is because platoon and squad are both "unit size" type terms and, in not wanting to confuse us, they enabled us to be confused

It seems like the list is a list of specific unit types.

If the term "infantry squads" was referring to the general type 'Infantry' as noted in the main rulebook, armored fist squads to some digree and definately storm trooper squads would be classified on that list making redundancies on it, which doesn't make sense. why would you say 'infantry squads can be given commissars, and stormtrooper squads can too which, coincidentally are already included under "infantry squads."

see what I'm saying?

ultimately there's always giving the rules boyz a call - I will always bow to their knowledgable rulings on our fair game

I'm also moving this to the general IG discussion subforum as this has turned into a fairly advance rules conversation - no need to boggle the minds of the conscripts!

[ssgtdude (M.I.A)]

I hear what you are saying, but the quote from the Adviser special rule doesn't say Infantry platoon. It says infantry squad. Which the Ogryn definately are. Just as the conscripts are formed into squads. As well as Storm troopers, Hardened Vets. Etc... The FAQ seems to also imply that this is legal as well. "If the commissar is assigned to a unit that does not have an officer or Sergeant leading it..." The Rest of the faq continues to refer to the Commissars being assigned to units. both of which clearly also qualify.

If you hear something from the Rulz Boyz let us know. It will be nice to see how they rule. As I have seen the Commissars played in this manner at GT as well.

As I read the adviser rule to mean that after assigning each of the commissar's to a unit if you do not have the independent commissar rule then a commissar may not act as one unless his unit is killed out from under them during game play. I also read the rule to read as the Commissar is in deed a IC and played as such.

[angelusmortis]

I agree with Turtleboy. An Ogryn squad is not an Infantry Squad, its an Ogryn Squad. Just because its troop type is classified as Infantry does not change its unit type. Apples and oranges.

The advisor rule is very specific in where you can place them and leaves no ambiguity. It specifies Infantry Squads (which is listed under Infantry Platoon), Armored Fist Squads and Storm Trooper Squads. What it does not say is "any Infantry troop type". This also means that the only way to attach a Commissar to a Conscript Platoon is via Independent Commissars.

[ssgtdude (M.I.A)]

I suggest you read what troops are classified as Infantry. Ogryn is specifically a Infantry Squad. Conscripts also are infantry. In fact Conscripts are an infantry Platoon.

By the adviser rule and I will break it down.
One commissar MUSt go to your command HQ
One must go to each JSO
then any infantry squad, armor fist or storm trooper squad.

Ogryn while being abhuman are still an Infantry squad not classified as an Ogryn squad. Regardless of them being an Ogryn they are still classified as an infantry squad. Hardened Vets are also an Infantry squad, as are conscripts. Just as the Ratlings are also a infantry squad as per the rules listed on page 87 of the main rule book.

The adviser rule then goes on to say that any commissar that is not assigned can not be used. It is only with the independent commissar doctrine that you get around this. Independent commissar does not negate the type of troops you can put a commissar in. With the independent commissar rule you can not place a commissar with a Rough rider squad as there is NO WAY to purchase a mount for them. You are still limited to infantry squads regardless of taking the commissar with the doctrine or without the doctrine. One only allows you to field them independently and not having to attach to through the normal adviser rule.

Hence with an independent commissar doctrine you would only need to buy the commissar for the conscripts or the Ogryn and not be forced to buy the 2-3 other commissars first.

If a commissar is placed with Ratlings you would loose the infiltrate special rule, but then the commissar would not have to shoot any of the little buggers since they can still choose to go to ground and be pinned instead of taking the moral test.

[angelusmortis]

Again, you are comparing apples to oranges. You are saying that because Ogryns are classified as a Infantry troop type that they equate to being called Infantry squad. That doesnt pass a logic test in the fact that the Advisor rule identifies SPECIFIC units, not troop types. It says any Infantry Squad, Armored Fist Squad, or Stormtrooper squad.

Now, two things with this. First, as they are all capitalized, that makes them proper nouns and therefore, a specific thing. If they were not capitalized, then it would of been a general description. However, they are indeed capitalized, which therefore makes them a title of a speicific unit. Secondly, troop type, as I stated earlier, is simply for you to know what general TROOP TYPE rules you are supposed to use from the BBB when moving, shooting or assaulting with said unit. TROOP TYPE in no way, means Ogryns = Infantry squad. Its called an "Ogryn Squad", or if you want to get technical just plain "Ogryns". If you want a second opinion, open up Army Builder and they have come to the same conclusion I have. Try and place a Commissar with Ogryns or Ratlings. They also say, no ahh-ahh. Sorry, but your mistaken.

[ssgtdude (M.I.A)]

Have you read the rules for Ogryn? Specifically regarding how to get them into a chimera? The It's Dark in dere rule implies from a RAI rules stand point that Ogryn indeed can and should have a commissar.

Sorry your argument isn't holding water with what is written in the codex regarding this. BTW Army builder has been known to be wrong on a number of occasions in the past. Especially, now since it is no longer supported by GW.

Besides, there is no troop choice Infantry Squad. You have to take it as a platoon and that platoon has a JSO you can not take it as a stand alone squad.

Since in the Adviser rules it already dictates that a JSO gets a commissar you can not then place a second one in that listing. This again is a case of RAI not RAW with GW's british Engrish.

[Turtleboy(AWOL)]

ssgtdude said:

Besides, there is no troop choice Infantry Squad.

In the Infantry Platoon entry you get 2-5 'Infantry squads.' this seems pretty self explanatory when you then compare that to the commissar entry.

ofcourse you can't assign a commissar to an 'Infantry platoon' since it's broken down into sub units. the command squad part of the platoon is adressed, and the list of specific units which are able to have commissars assigned them if there are more commissars than command squads at that lists 'Infantry squads' as that is the other part of the platoon.

2 out of 3 of the items on the the list of which units commissars may be assigned to if theres 1 per command squad are specific units, and the third one in question has an entry which we can refer to in the codex that is a sub-unit specifically called an 'Infantry squad.' the fact there's no other way to list this sub unit means that we can probably be pretty safe in figuring that 'Infantry squad' on the list refers to the 'Infantry squad' entry in the guard codex under 'Infantry platoon.' how else would you list a squad that was a part of an infantry platoon?

[ssgtdude (M.I.A)]

It would be addressed in the fact that GW made an editing mistake and have not decided to fix it because they figure that the mistake would be taken as RAI instead. Figuring that people would be able to read entries within the big book of rules and the Codex to arrive at the proper use of the said unit. Couple this with the fact that when given the FAQ entries evade the entire situation by listing units instead of the word squads. Which, would lead an astute reader to the conclusion that squad and unit is interchangeable in the 40K lingo. Providing more fuel to any argument to support that the adviser rule has a misprint with an upper case Vowel instead of a lower case changing a word from a noun to a proper noun. Meaning that the fifth grader that they have hired to edit their rule books once again made a mistake.

The sub-unit is addressed in the adviser rule. It is also addressed that you can only take one per unit. Therefore this is even more proof that the editor made a complete and bloody mess of an otherwise easy (sic) to understand rule set.

Bringing us back to the unit types which clearly show that while the adviser rule does in fact list Armor fist, and storm trooper squads (Which BTW have special rules for their units which brake them from a traditional infantry squad) it would lead one to believe that infantry squad is a universal word to describe the type of squad and not just the named unit which through the adviser rule is no longer eligible to have a commissar since one is already assigned to the squads platoon hq.


As to your question as to how you would list a squad that was part of an infantry platoon.
One could use Band, troop, force, crew, or my favorite Detachment.

We are, afterall, only discussing an upgrade character not an Independent Character (Does not meet the criteria to be an IC unless bought as an Independent through doctrine). An expensive unit upgrade, but one non- the less. Which the rules for Characters also lend support to the point that if assigned to a unit with infiltrate as a upgrade and not bought as an IC then the upgrade character does NOT remove the units ability to infiltrate. IF bought as an IC then gains the ability to move through cover, and expert rider (which is silly since you can not buy a mount for him) and any unit he joins loses the special rules for the squad.

[angelusmortis]

OMG your stretching. I mean, really, really stretching. Trust me, I'm a RAI guy, I hate RAW. But on this one, you are really stretching. When your trying to figure out RAI, you have to go with the most logical result. What your saying is not the most logical result. There is nothing that says an Ogryn squad is an Infantry squad. There is an entry that says an Infantry Platoon consists of 2-5 INFANTRY SQUADS. Its not really that hard Brother, your just making it that way. No offense.

[ssgtdude (M.I.A)]

None Taken, but having a very difficult time with this considering the GT's, GW sanctioned Tourneys, and other evens that I have been involved in since 4th ed and no one said squat about this until the verge of 5th is being released. Makes no sense, that GW run events, the Red shirts, Black shirts, work out the lists and not even an eye brow is raised.

In fact, they look at the argument that is going on here, as well as other boards and shake their heads and say you guys are wrong. Someone needs to write to the rules boyz so we can get something official on this question.


Also with the evidence I do not see that this is stretching. In fact I have actually traced the beginnings of this argument to someone being beaten by a guard army. I believe the guy was an eldar player having his harlies killed by a squad of conscripts.

[Turtleboy(AWOL)]

I'm not agreeing with your argument ssgtdude, I'm just giving up on trying to convince you. I'll call the rulesboyz instead and let their ruling be the law - that sounds like the best plan. (they're closed today as it's easter, but I'll give 'em a shout tomorrow)

[fatuous]

Unfortunately the advisers special rule limits which units can have them. I'm hoping it turns out to be other wise, as I'd love to assign a preist to an ogryn squad

[ssgtdude (M.I.A)]

See the coward Commissar thread. Until a time when we can take independent Priest it doesn't look like we will be able to do that.