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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2008 13:05:46 GMT -5
Hi guys,
I'm underway on my first Guard army (returning to 40K after a few years away). I've searched the boards without finding anything so I apologise if this topic has (more than likely) already been discussed.
Do IG commanders out there find that Heavy Weapons are more effective when embedded within troop platoons or operational in independent squads?
As far as I see it its essentially a trade-off between survivability and mobility, is it this straight forward?
Comments and thought much appreciated thanks!
Chris
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Post by Woz on Jun 9, 2008 14:44:51 GMT -5
I take HW Squads and have HW's in my infantry platoons.
The HW squads give me a good fire base to cover my army. I give my infantry platoons HW's because it gives them a tactical advantage, the guy with the HW keeps his lasgun so you don't lose out.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2008 15:12:43 GMT -5
Ok thanks, one more thing regarding heavy weapons; do squads containing them use transports as normal? I cant find any literature that says otherwise.
Cheers again.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2008 16:14:19 GMT -5
Yup. Additionally, if you are carrying a heavy weapon in a chimera you can fire it from the top of the chug. This does mean that the chug counts as an open topped vehicle however.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2008 5:13:00 GMT -5
Ah ok awesome thanks guys
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2008 8:32:25 GMT -5
Thank goodness I found this thread.
I was wondering the same thing ;D
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Post by lordcastellenjon on Jun 10, 2008 19:50:28 GMT -5
but on the pls side of this that also means they can stick there lascannon out the top of there chimera and let louse at a tank
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Post by Warmaster Stabwhiskers on Jun 11, 2008 0:34:39 GMT -5
Heavy Weapons, cant leave home without them, deals with the irritating 8 year olds that think they're 40K pros, sends them crying back home to their moms.
Dangerous, very dangerous, especially when in concentrated HW platoons, or attached to command squads, either way, you either have a strength in numbers, or strength in Ld.
And for the 'trade-off between survivability and mobility' part. Rather, mobility isnt the issue here, since the larger flanking maneuvers used by the guard rely on the elite choices or heroic sentinel rushes, forcing the enemy to engage the charging units, using the HW platoons and Infantry platoons to wipe them out.
Another tactic which comes in handy in larger point battles, are the infamous mortar / heavy bolter pairings. Use the G48" wonder to smash anything that refuses to advance, then use the wonderful 36" of the heavy bolters to pound anything that charges. Eventually, you wear down your enemy in a battle of attrition.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2008 1:00:04 GMT -5
i tend to keep my guys in concentrated squads. while a lascannon in a squad is still something to be feared thats only one shot. however 3 lascannons is nothing to laugh at.
which brings me to a funny little story. in my first apoc battle i had a lascannon squad on a wall and when they fired i rolled three 6's to hit, on damage two 6's to penetate and on the penetration talbe one 6 to blow the thing to hell.
quite fun.
also to be considered is the mighty autocannon. even thoughit has only two shots its still something to blast most infantry into instant death and has a great range.
although if your playing horde armies the heavy bolter is still your friend.
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Post by lordcastellenjon on Jun 11, 2008 3:50:25 GMT -5
or do my plane take 6 lascannons this gives you a nice cross fire and forces your enermy to think harder then use two fire sapport squads one fielding the hevy bolter the other the auto cannons so that gives you 3 HB's and 3 AC's then for the finarley if you still have some MK's left over stick them on your gaurds that are standing up they look kwl like that just dont forget you need 3 spotters as well
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2008 4:03:16 GMT -5
Absolutely. The only weakness of the heavy weapons for the guard is armour penetration. This means that the underwhelming missile launcher is by far the most effective weapon shot for shot with anything else.
Importantly, unless your at apocalypse level or close, heavy wepons platoons are disproportionately expensive. I find that at 1000-2500 pts battles, you are better off focusing on the "support" teams attached to the command section.
At Apoc, Heavy weapon platoons are a must - That many lascannons are just bound to kill something.
Additionally, I would add the following combinations:
Mortars plus Sentinels: You've got a really well entrenched heavy weapon team blasting your mini's, or a squad of assault guardians rushing your non close combat lines. Need two turns of un relenting close range fire - pin them!
Only ever use mortars in large numbers (3 minimum, recommend 6). Use the mortar barrage to pummel a target squad on either flank (Importantly they should be the "widest" unit. A charging unit is great, in cover heavy weapon teams are great - your main objective is not to kill them all (unlikely), but to pin. You can then "step out" you Sentinel Squad (3 minimum) and pound away with your multilaser/autocannon to your hearts content.
NB: Mortar barrages (or sniper fire) also work well if coordinated with fire support troops (Vets/Grenadiers), as the attacking squad can standoff as a distance and fire at point blank range without the fear of being charged etc.
Sentinels plus Heavy Weapons team: How often have you been in the situation where your HWT's are covering a flank and all the enemy are approaching within charge range behind a particularly convenient broken tank. Answer - Sentinels.
Place three sentinels adjacent to your Heavy weapon teams (but in cover). When the enemy charges and funnels outside your HWT's field of fire. You can then step out and reduce their numbers even more. Also if necessary the Sentinel can charge the enemy while your HWT refocus.
Sentinels are useful in combination with Heavy weapons teams as they are mobile attack platforms which are either ignored by or focused on too much by the enemy - either way works for you.
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Post by lordcastellenjon on Jun 11, 2008 6:12:51 GMT -5
yeah your right there pin with morters (or as I use snipers) then pound them with plasma if they are termies or your hevy bolters if there genestealers or other en mass rush squad
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2008 8:44:42 GMT -5
The advantage with multilasers on Sentinels is that they can move out from behind cover AND fire. Agreed on plasma tho' - Although never underestimate the power of the satchel charge. Sometimes that the most effective way of getting a pie plate on the buggers.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2008 13:38:47 GMT -5
Loads of sound advice there thanks, I think that mortars are a very underestimated weapon so will almost definitely include some in my army.
The only thing bothering me is that guard anti-tank capability seems rather limited to the lascannon or krak missile. Worth taking lascannon tooled sentinals or missile squads? Are krak missiles that good in practice?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2008 15:55:45 GMT -5
krak missiles are great because you can hit BOTH troops and tanks hard. Don't forget a frag missile is S4 - which means 6 missiles on a bunched up swarm will be lethal - and especially so when you consider that the new 5th edition rules on blast are rumoured to includ ALL models touched by the blast - no more 4+ to hits...
MathHammer time:
o 3 Heavy Bolters at 9 shots, 4.5 hits, 3 wounds, 2 saves = 1 dead marine. o 3 Krak Missile = 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, no save = 1.25 dead marines.
You can't touch this, doo doo doo do.... ***Suneokun does a MC Hammer Dance***
Check out ma threads!!!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2008 16:03:52 GMT -5
Ha check those moves!
You're selling me on those krak missiles... but i've never been clear on one thing; do you specify what type of missile the unit carries from the beginning or are they interchangeable throughout the game?
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Post by Woz on Jun 11, 2008 16:46:16 GMT -5
They get both types of missiles. You just say what type of missile he's firing before you roll to hit.
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Jun 11, 2008 16:54:50 GMT -5
o 3 Krak Missile = 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, no save = 1.25 dead marines. 1.25 dead marines eh? I'd hate to see what .25 of a dead marine looks like.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2008 17:55:49 GMT -5
Only plasma beats missile launchers for SMURF busting.
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Post by Woz on Jun 11, 2008 18:49:09 GMT -5
Only plasma beats missile launchers for SMURF busting. Except for long range but then the las cannon is even better.
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Post by Commissar on Jun 11, 2008 21:25:13 GMT -5
Bolters can be fun too... Heavy bolters awaayyyyyyy! But I like missiles too.
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Post by chromepip on Jun 12, 2008 0:42:43 GMT -5
what about combinations? I like to have 2 Lascannon squads, and an Auto squad. Do heavy bolters work better when used with missile launchers or Lascannons?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2008 2:30:48 GMT -5
Yes of course. It's best to have a selection available for battling different enemies. Although there is a train of thought (SUbleBlatancy's) that says take all Missile Launchers. Although thie isn't as "fun", it doesn't give you a regiment across your whole battlefield which doesn't help the enemy "pick" as all squad/HWT's have the same heavy weapon.
That said, I've often found it useful to "tempt" an enemy in with a particularly tasty HWT. They focus on that forget about your standard flashlights.
It depends on your opponent.
My only point with the Missile Launcher is that high AP beats high rate of fire with certain enemies. The ML will gives you the flexibility.
I have always found the autocannon remarkably dissapointing. It's strength isn't quite enough for the antitank role, but it's rate of fire doesn't quite cut it for hordes. It's a compromised weapon.
Plus with 3ML plus 3Mortar plus 3 AC/HB/LC from every heavy weapon box, You automatically end up with lots of this versatile weapon.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Jun 12, 2008 5:30:07 GMT -5
The AC was awesome when it was an AP3 weapon. I'd love for it to return to it's orginal form. As it is, its only real role is knocking down light vehicles.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2008 11:39:09 GMT -5
and 3 of them can knock out rhinos, land speeder squads, sentinels, probably some eldar tanks
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