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Post by Macfeegle on Jul 14, 2009 7:21:29 GMT -5
Without trying to start an argument, can I ask what the problem is with Space Marines having 6 dedicated codices?
Shortly before the release of 5th ed. we had both Orks, Chaos Space Marines, and Daemons. Since then we have had SM and IG.
I think it is a great sign that they are updating Space Wolves. It is one of the oldest of the bunch, so hopefully this will lend more credibility to the rumours about Dark Eldar and a book of the Inquisition.
Space Marines are amongst the easiest for new players to learn. Stat line is flat 4, paint job is a very simple one, and who doesn't like to be a super soldier?
I think the most ironic thing here, is everyone was complaining that GW do nothing for their veteran players. How many of you stopped to ask into which group the players of SW commonly fall?
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Post by cheminhaler on Jul 14, 2009 7:35:27 GMT -5
Yes. The SW are very divergent. Blood Claws are scout novice beserkers in power armour, with mohawks. Anyway 30 heads on the sprue is bloody good news for us modellers. I've got a mate who collects SW, and I was getting fed up of GSing hairstyles onto those same tired old 5 heads. In the end I started using Catachan heads for variety. CSM vampire head was OK also. My mates models are mostly bare-headed apart from the Grey Hunters. SW should be bare-headed! Off-topic slightly : There are loads of new kits with tons of heads. Anyone seen new Empire Archer kit? 20 heads? Plastic greatcoat kitbash?
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Post by Gree on Jul 14, 2009 9:52:41 GMT -5
To be honest I'm not liking the look of the new Grey Hunters, they look kinda inbred.
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Post by cheminhaler on Jul 14, 2009 10:17:49 GMT -5
We've only seen a couple of the heads so far. It's safe to assume some of the heads will look better. SW should have feral, wild looks. Like they just tore someone's leg off with their teeth.
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Post by Melissia on Jul 14, 2009 11:18:07 GMT -5
Without trying to start an argument, can I ask what the problem is with Space Marines having 6 dedicated codices? Marines don't DESERVE to have any more than anyone else. The fact remains that they have almost as many codices-- with at least one more being rather likely (Codex: Chaos Legions makes rounds on the rumour circle frequently) as eveyrone else COMBINED. The variant codices for other armies were removed, but the Marine variants remained.
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Post by John_Galt (M.I.A) on Jul 14, 2009 11:30:39 GMT -5
I'd rather we had 20 different codecies than 6 combined ones. I miss stuff like codex: catachans. It provided for much more creative and unique gameplay and fluff. I hate that they now are just grouping all the SM's into one vanilla codex.
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Post by Melissia on Jul 14, 2009 11:37:22 GMT -5
SMs have seven codices right now, John Galt, that's hardly "one vanilla codex".
Personally, I would prefer every faction get several codices apiece-- variant tyranid swarms, Guard regiment types, Sororitas Orders and Ecclesiarchal stuff, Chaos Legions, Necrons separated between allegiances to one of their c'tan gods, Ork Klanz, and so on. But that's not the way it works-- except for Marines.
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Post by John_Galt (M.I.A) on Jul 14, 2009 11:49:02 GMT -5
...except DA, BA, DT, SW are all useless thanks to the new vanilla one (unless you run ravenwing), since we don't get thunderfire cannons, better troop capacity for land raiders, etc. As it is right now, we must essentially play different colored ultramarines, and I hate it.
And calling CSM and DH marine armies is pretty thin. Grey Knights are tons more expenive than your standard Marine, and apart from having a similar troop choice, CSM's coulnd't be more different
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Post by Melissia on Jul 14, 2009 11:53:52 GMT -5
Hello Chaos SPACE MARINES. Grey Knights are Marines, too, chapter 666 to be precise. Stop with the excuses, the fact still remains. A good number of players still do BA, DA, BT, and SW, and make it work, too. And so it remains that Marine players HAVE a choice.
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Post by John_Galt (M.I.A) on Jul 14, 2009 12:05:01 GMT -5
But apart from the name they play completly differently from marine chapter armies. If I were to take a marine player and give him gray knights or csm's he wouldn't know what the hell to do with them. And we still do the old codex becuase we like to stick to the fluff, but if I'm going into a tourney my DA's are suddenly green ultramarines, because there is no way to win unless I go Ravenwing cheese army of doom (and I don't have enough bikes for that ).
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Post by Melissia on Jul 14, 2009 12:09:21 GMT -5
They're still variant Space Marines. They could just as well have been titled "Space Marines-- But Different!".
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Post by Macfeegle on Jul 14, 2009 12:36:45 GMT -5
So basically Melissia, your argument comes down to the fact that you don't feel the love from GW, (once more) because they have "neglected" the Adeptus Sororitas?
I still don't see why you take such umbrage over GW publishing the SW codex. You make it seem like it is some sort of personal affront.
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Post by John_Galt (M.I.A) on Jul 14, 2009 12:50:09 GMT -5
No, they're not. BA, DA, SW, BT, yes, they are varient space marines.
But GK's and CSM's are totally different. They only share a similar name and stat line. Their rules are different, their point costs are different, their play style and abilities are completley different.
But that's all besides the point. My point is, I'd rather have 6 or 7 unique space marine chapters with their own special rules and abilities, rather than an uber vanilla dex that's so much better than the current dexes you'd be a fool not to use it.
...and Macfeegle, they neglect the sororitas because only 5 people play them, just like Dark Eldar.
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Post by Melissia on Jul 14, 2009 12:56:43 GMT -5
Macfeegle: Why yes, that's what it comes down to in the end. Marines are given far, FAR too much attention and everyone else-- not JUST the Sororitas, EVERYONE else-- is neglected in comparison.
Galt: No matter what you say galt, CSMs are still variant Marines. Grey Knights are still variant Marines. They are Space Marines in a different style, nothing more. Mind you, I LIKE the Grey Knights, but the fact still remains-- they are Space Marines.
Also, no army bashing, Galt. I'm not bashing Marines, don't [bleeping] start being an [bleeping] idiot and bash the Sororitas.
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Post by John_Galt (M.I.A) on Jul 14, 2009 13:09:26 GMT -5
Not bashing, they are a very good army, but you can't argue that they are one of the least popular. I never, ever see them. Same with Dark Eldar (I've met only one person who plays them in my life, besides Ymmot).
GK's or CSM's are not similar enough to SM's to call them variants. That's like saying Eldar are the same as tau becuase they both have 4+ saves.
Whereas DA's, BA's, BT's, SW's, all share similar units and rules.
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Post by Gree on Jul 14, 2009 13:13:08 GMT -5
Does anyone hear that odd buzzing noise? Almost like a high-pitched whine? Anyone? It's almost like someone going on an off-topic rant that has nothing to do with the OP.
Ah well. Best get back on to topic.
I would like is they remade the Ragnar model it kinda looks outdated IMO.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Jul 14, 2009 13:21:35 GMT -5
In the most technical terms, yes, Grey Knights are Space Marines. As someone (I think it was Gree) pointed out, they are Chapter 666 of the Astartes. Thus, yes, they are SM, no matter what they play like. Now, Chaos Space Marines can also be considered Space Marines because they are called Chaos SPACE MARINES. They have access to Dreads, Rhinos, Predators, Vindicators, Termie Armour, Land Raiders, etc. They're also big angry men in power armour waving bolters and chainswords around. They are Marines, at least in a technical sense. Anyway, I opened my gmail a few days ago, and I found this... Just when I though they couldn't look any sillier... Reds
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Post by Melissia on Jul 14, 2009 13:22:38 GMT -5
Not bashing, they are a very good army, but you can't argue that they are one of the least popular. I never, ever see them. Same with Dark Eldar (I've met only one person who plays them in my life, besides Ymmot). I know more Sisters players locally than I know Daemons, Daemonhunter, and Dark Eldar players locally-- combined. A friend of mine up in canada knows only a single Grey Knights player, but half a dozen Sororitas players, while she's the only Necron player. The variation of what players play which army is dependant on location. One of the largest reasons that they aren't doing so well is simply that they recieve almost no press. I've heard quite a few stories where the Sisters aren't even available for purchase at local stores for example. In other words? Their current level of sales/popularity is greatly exaggerated because of the business decisions that GW has made, to the detriment of both GW's profits and the Sororitas as a faction. No, it's not the same as suggesting Tau and Eldar are variants, it boggles the mind that you'd even suggest that-- it's a completely moronic statement. Tau are not related to Eldar, they are a completely different race for that matter, they are visually extremely different (unlike SMs/CSMs/GKs) as well. Meanwhile, unless you're completely and utterly ignorant to the fluff, it's impossible for you to honestly claim that Grey Knights and Chaos Space Marines are not actually Space Marines.
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Post by Gree on Jul 14, 2009 13:23:14 GMT -5
There it is, the whining annoying voice. Anyone else hear it? It's like someone is ranting about their personal problems that has nothing to do with Space wolves at all.
I'm sure it's nothing.
Anyway I'm not really liking the topknot, I have enough of that with Chaos. The fangs are nice though.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Jul 14, 2009 13:26:14 GMT -5
Somehow, I forsee a wall of flame that will cover the horizon from end to end, from the heavens to the earth, from Melissia.
Okay, I'll explain the economics of the matter Gree. People don't deciede 'I'm going to play Space Marines', they deciede 'I'm going to play Warhammer 40,000'. Games Workshop's decision to focus heavily on the Space Marines mean that the likelihood is that said people will choose Space Marines, but the likelihood that they would have simply stopped playing because Space Marines were not uber-awesome and had five codices is a fairly low one. Along with this comes the risk that GW's continual marketing of Space Marines will result in an oversaturation of the marine's market - in essence, people will so sicken of playing power-armoured Mary Sues that they will attempt to switch to other armies - this happens all the time. However, if GW focuses too much on Marines, the likelihood is that players attempting to switch will become dissatisfied and leave warhammer simply because they cannot play a different army effectively, at least against fellow marines.
Edit: I also formally apologise to Gree for being so rude as to suggest he would use such a bastard trick as Lash Of Submission.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Jul 14, 2009 13:27:52 GMT -5
Yeah, the fangs look decent, but the top knot looks like he failed to grasp the basic premise of the pony tail. Anyway, it's not like Space Wolves don't have a history of weird hair. There's one SW head that looks like the guy stuck his finger in an electrical socket.
Reds
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Post by John_Galt (M.I.A) on Jul 14, 2009 13:28:03 GMT -5
I think it's becuase they lack enough plastic models too. People would probably buy more of them if everything wasn't metal.
I'm not saying that CSM's and GK's are not marines, but to count them as a marine-varient codex is just silly, especially the GK's, who are more different from a codex chapter than an Ork is from a Tau ethereal.
Not sure if a topknot goes with the mutton chops. They are straying from the angry-viking theme.
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Post by Gree on Jul 14, 2009 13:29:12 GMT -5
Somehow, I forsee a wall of flame that will cover the horizon from end to end, from the heavens to the earth, from Melissia. I have no idea what you are talking about. I'm here to talk about the Wolves, not Sisters. Okay, I'll explain the economics of the matter Gree. People don't deciede 'I'm going to play Space Marines', they deciede 'I'm going to play Warhammer 40,000'. Games Workshop's decision to focus heavily on the Space Marines mean that the likelihood is that said people will choose Space Marines, but the likelihood that they would have simply stopped playing because Space Marines were not uber-awesome and had five codices is a fairly low one. Along with this comes the risk that GW's continual marketing of Space Marines will result in an oversaturation of the marine's market - in essence, people will so sicken of playing power-armoured Mary Sues that they will attempt to switch to other armies - this happens all the time. However, if GW focuses too much on Marines, the likelihood is that players attempting to switch will become dissatisfied and leave warhammer simply because they cannot play a different army effectively, at least against fellow marines. I don't care about that. It has nothing to do with the development of the new Space Wolf codex and discussion about the new models. GW's policy has nothing to do with the new Wolf rules and models. It is off-topic and therefore does not interest me at all. Yeah, the fangs look decent, but the top knot looks like he failed to grasp the basic premise of the pony tail. Anyway, it's not like Space Wolves don't have a history of weird hair. There's one SW head that looks like the guy stuck his finger in an electrical socket. Reds I used that head for a Emperor's children, it looked pretty wild actually. It goes well with the punker rocker look.
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Post by Melissia on Jul 14, 2009 13:36:33 GMT -5
*shrug* That they might vary slightly from the "Vikings-- IN SPACE!" theme doesn't surprise me too much. I mean, GW is capricious in that way-- they based an entire Marine army off of an Edgar Allen Poe poem...
They are variant Space Marines because they are Space Marines that don't go by the Space Marine codex. Simple as that.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Jul 14, 2009 13:49:35 GMT -5
And off-topic is a way of life here, Gree.
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