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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2009 17:33:10 GMT -5
I was wondering, do anybody play Inquisition anymore? I myself have SoB's and GK's (amongst other armies) and only ever used an Inquisitior in my army, but I'd like to hear what are peoples (neutral) opinions about all Inquisition armies, meaning Inquisitors, assassins, Inquisitorial Stormtroopers and the likes.
I myself am going to try one out soon, as I love the Inquisitions fluff, and am wondering does anybody consider the least bit comptetetive? I do realize they need to stay at rather low points, preferably around 1000 so that they don't get overrun with heavy weapons as that is what the Inquisition part lacks unless you pack with gun-servitors. I have done a list with stormtroopers in rhinos, temple assassin, deathcult assassins and a Inq. Lord with gunservitors, and it seems it could actually fare well at around the 1000p limit unless it faces a good amount of Land Raiders, Leman Russes and high str weapons.
Any pro's regarding Inquisition armies (other than being fluffy)? I guess we all know the cons.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Jul 22, 2009 18:16:04 GMT -5
I absolutely love the =I= fluff. ...what little of it there is...
Inquisitors themselves are useful, if a bit outdated in ability. No other =I= unit in the WH 'dex is useful. The officio assassins are moderately useful, but factoring in codex creep, they have a few issues to work through...
Now, there are some Ecclesiarchy units in there that look cool that aren't SoB. Arco-flagellants, for example, are one of my favorite units in the game. Have them as IG allies, and order them to Move, move, move. Glorious.
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Post by ssgtdude (M.I.A) on Jul 22, 2009 18:49:55 GMT -5
I still pull out my SOB from time to time. For the 'Ard boyz tournament I did bring them out for the big game. Just used them to represent the Grey knights in the army instead of sisters is all.
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Post by Melissia on Jul 24, 2009 13:15:33 GMT -5
Well, if you're going to do the INquisition side of C:WH and C:DH, you're going to be handicapping yourself. Because they suck. The ONLY "pro" is that they're so unused that people don'tk now how ot deal with them, but even that is unreliable when they realize they can just deal with them the same way they deal with grenadier veteran guardsmen (except these are more expensive with fewer options). Because that's what the bulk of your force will probably be, due to your need for troops.
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Post by commissargaunt on Jul 24, 2009 14:17:01 GMT -5
Well you could "cheat" a little bit here and count a land raider as say a mobile mini inquisitorial fortress thingy, hell you could do some really cool conversions along those lines with a planetstrike bastion and a modified land raider.
The Inquisitor and Inquisitor Lord are both excellent units due to their flexibility. I think you may end up relying on these guys to become the backbone of your army so take 2 ILs and 2 Is. Abuse the cheapness of =I= stormtroopers to fill out your troops choices cheaply.
Make sure they each have very defined roles, so use one IL as a fire base (acolytes with combi-bolters and pace' along with plenty of gun servitors).
the other one should form a combat base so here you want artificer/ terminator armour power weapons/fists, power armoured acolytes, pistols, CCWs and the suchlike along with MELTABOMBS! these are really your only hope against heavy armour without taking dreadnoughts or land raiders.
Your two Inquisitors should also have defined roles but be more support units to the ILs so one would be Combat oriented and maybe follow the IL around in a Rhino whereas the more shooty squad might have some more expensive and exotic ranged weapons such as plasma cannons and multi meltas. to deal with heavy infantry or vehicles.
Depending on what you want your stormtroopers doing you may want to mount them in rhinos to add some bodies to a combat to stop your Inquisitors and their retinues taking too much damage.
Generally stormtroopers work well for combat denial or holding units up. with 4+ armour saves they can hold up medium sized units in combat for a considerable amount of time.
By withholding Grey knights you also open up the option of Daemonhosts, although unpredictable they are relatively cheap and can be a game winner with a little bit of luck.
Your assassin should really be supporting one of your armies bases here. The army I have just described has 2 bases:
Fast moving Combat base- IL and I along with =I= stormtroopers for expendable wounds.
Fire base: IL and I with ranged weapons.
Your assassin should complement one of these areas, If you think the combat base could use some extra support take a Callidus or Eversor. Whereas the Firebase may benefit from being joined by a vindicare.
Hope this helps!
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Post by Melissia on Jul 24, 2009 14:20:24 GMT -5
In the end though, no matter what you do with it it's still going to suck compared to any competative army. You have no FA choices and only one HS choice (which can only be taken once), and you're reliant on outdated rules and point costings for everything else.
I guess you could do land raider spam? Both types of =][=s are able to take them as transports if they have a retinue...
edit: Basic land raiders only.
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Post by commissargaunt on Jul 24, 2009 14:59:52 GMT -5
I actually think this type of army could be competitive. Although It would be heavily reliant on about three core units, Inquisitors Inquisitor Lords and Land Raiders. The Stormtroopers would probably end up as easy Killpoints if they were misused. Although I have found that there are some great KP denial strategies available to deamonhunters Lists using lots of STs such as giving the ST sergeants artificer or power armour. Although this may be pricey it does in fact really effect killpoint based games because you have to wipe out the whole unit to get the KP.
You could fill those FA choices with Sentinels and rough riders if you wanted to take 2 small IG platoons instead of going Inquisitor heavy.
For capture and control games orobjective games this list may suffer, as it relies on the STs for capturing units. although it could be done it would be a difficult, although different and certainly very fun, list to play.
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Post by Melissia on Jul 24, 2009 15:09:03 GMT -5
*shrug* I'd have little to no problem decimating an LR spam list like that with my Sororitas army. Pop goes the land raider!.
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Post by commissargaunt on Jul 24, 2009 16:22:14 GMT -5
I never said it had to spam Land raiders, in fact I thought I was making this out to be a more infantry centric type list.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2009 16:54:14 GMT -5
Melissia I know that the Inquisition is very handicapped, even when compared to old dexes. I just personally love their fluff (amongst other things) and will try them out in friendly games, and as such am seeking opinions as how to best field them, given the limitations you have.
Good points have been brought up overall, and I think Inquisition units can win when the points are around 1000 or lower, but it will be harder. I personally consider the absence of heavy weapons (few on servitors and transports at max.) the biggest con, as the ST's are not all that bad, 10 of them with 2 plasmas actually cost less than a squad of IG Veterans with carapace and 2 plasmas.
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Post by Melissia on Jul 24, 2009 18:49:09 GMT -5
I don't, unless you get lucky or your opponent is playing a subpar list. Pretty much anything you can come up with, I'd put up my pure Sisters lists against and give them better odds of winning regardless of skill, same with any really ecent lists.
You may love their fluff (I don't, or rather I wish the Inquisition was never hacked on to codex: Sisters of Battle), but still, you're reducing your chances of winning (mind you, you always have a chance of winning if your opponents make mistakes or you get lucky).
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Post by Kaikelx on Jul 24, 2009 23:20:42 GMT -5
Or if you're such a supreme tactician, that you could literrally run circles around your opponent....
I'm not one to say doing something with a list "sucks", as I believe that any list design can work, given the right situation, but I must say, having pure Inquisition is MUCH more challenging than most limitations players put on themselves....
However, if you can win, or even simply draw with such a list, you'd probably earn a LOT of respect for doing that with so many limitations.
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Post by Melissia on Jul 24, 2009 23:28:05 GMT -5
and sometimes the right situations are simply so rare or never happen in a normal game, and thus the unit is indeed useless/sucky/subpar/underpowerd/whatever you want to call it.
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Post by commissargaunt on Jul 25, 2009 3:26:09 GMT -5
I don't know if this list would suck or be ok. I think that what Many people, primarily melissa, are not seeing past the quite mediocre troops choices they are actually very workable if you have experience using Guard Grenadiers in the old dex' as troops. The Daemonhunters Inquisitor and Inquisitor Lord are fantastic choices because they are so flexible. Assassins add some unexpected punch and nifty tricks. This list is based around a core of elites and HQ units rather than its troops. They are simply there to act as back up and objective grabbers.
I think this list wouldn't suck. It would be very different to anything else many people would have played and probably wouldn't be very competitive but for a fun and unusual list I say why not?
Melissa Why are you constantly knocking this idea? I think we all know SoBs are better than =I= stormtroopers but playing this list would be further from an =I= list and closer to an elite guard list that can do CC to a certain extent.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2009 5:00:03 GMT -5
I don't think anybody is considering =I= to be more effective than SoB for example, but that shouldn't stop anyone from playing them. I have most of the armies in 40k (tau and orks are the ones I don't have) and I like to experiment with armies, trying things that aren't as effective as can be, but more fun.
I'm not saying effective = boring, far from it, but I just find toying with lists and using weird things to win (either my opponents are very bad or I'm above average, since even with crazy lists I usually manage to draw). An unit of 10 stormies with 2 plasmas in a rhino are 170 points, where an unit of 10 veterans with carapace and 3 plasmas in a Chimera (unupgraded) are 200 points. Sure the veterans have a bit more firepower in the form of 1 more plasmagun and the Chimeras weapons, but the ST's weapons have AP5 which helps a bit, so in comparison I don't think even the ST's which are the weakest link in the army suck, just depends on how to employ them.
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Post by Inquisitor Macala on Jul 25, 2009 6:37:38 GMT -5
I run Inquisitors religiously. I have loads of GKs, but rarely do i use them.
If you run a dedicated =l= list, yes you will have a tough time. They are only great versus Chaos, and thier psyker powers are next to useless with daemon rules. However, if you tool up your IL and IS, you can become well rounded. Its an army devoted to specialists. Its like running nothing but Aspect warriors for Eldar: find the right combo, and you can take anything... except hydras. My army has horrible luck against hydras.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Jul 25, 2009 17:59:11 GMT -5
You're in a Guard forum, Melissia, most of whom are veterans of the last Guard 'dex. We're masters of using underpowered units.
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Post by commissargaunt on Jul 25, 2009 18:21:11 GMT -5
Hear hear RT!
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Jul 25, 2009 18:21:36 GMT -5
You're in a Guard forum, Melissia, most of whom are veterans of the last Guard 'dex. We're used to using underpowered units. That's a little more accurate, I think. Reds
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Post by Morat on Jul 25, 2009 21:01:16 GMT -5
How's about this for MEq massacring:
Inq lord with Psycannon and Artificer Armour and Blessed Weapon 3 Vets with Meltaguns Sage Servo Skull Rhino and Extra Armour
9 Death Cult Assassins
5x Stormtroopers 2x Plasma Gun Bolter Plasma for Sgt Rhino and Extra Armour
5x Stormtroopers 2x Plasma Gun Bolter Plasma for Sgt Rhino and Extra Armour
5x Stormtroopers 2x Melta Gun Bolter Melta for Sgt Rhino and Extra Armour
Should be somewhere around 1000 points.
Infiltrate all of the death cult as close as possible and in cover. Enemy will be forced to deal with them turn 1 or get carved up (I field a mere 3 with my Inq and one -always- survives first turn at the very least). Everything else barrels forward full speed. Turn 2 the surviving cultists are in combat. Turn 3 everything else arrives to burn survivors in an endless sea of plasma (and melta).
Dawn of war setups and kill point battles a real problem of course...
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Post by Melissia on Jul 25, 2009 21:34:34 GMT -5
C:WH Rhinos only have one fire point, and therefor only one IST can fire out of the top at any given time.
RT: I was also a 4th edition Guard player, even fi I cannot claim to be as veteran as you (and, admittedly, my Guard force was rather small). The point I wish to stress is that this is amongst the weakest of armies-- yes, even weaker than 4th edition Guard-- to exist in 40K tabletop. If not the weakest.
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Post by Kaikelx on Jul 26, 2009 10:59:43 GMT -5
At least 4th ed guard, if I remember right, could take more......
I'll put it this way:
From what I hear (Not really experienced with the "I" codex), using an army like this will be like using a Guard army- If your guardsmen cost around the same cost of a Grey Knight....
But I may be wrong.
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Post by Melissia on Jul 26, 2009 11:07:12 GMT -5
More like a 4th ed Guard army, but you're only allowed to take stormtroopers as troops, and they have fewer equipment options, and they don't have infiltrate/deep strike, and you're using outdated versions of the chimera or rhino as transport.
So basicly, 60 models max troop count, and around 94 models total including inquisitors and their retinue. All of these are T3, and most of these have a GEQ statline with a 4+ save (around ~16 or so will have 5+ saves).
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Post by commissargaunt on Jul 26, 2009 11:24:31 GMT -5
What you're describing is an army based around the old grenadiers doctrine, That was worse. You could only have 3 squads of old STs as troops (the rest still being elites) and they had basically the same stuff as the =I= stormtroopers. They couldn't infiltrate or deep strike and could only take the old Chimera as a transport, so they couldn't even have the cheaper Rhino. The sergeants didn't have the cool options available to them in the WH/DH codexes either. They sucked. Badly.
Remember though That your 60 guys as troops are about as good as Eldar Dire avengers, without the special rules or assault weapons, but they are cheaper and can have some nifty combos.
Your Inquisitors and their retinues will be powerhouses seeing as these units can have the 2+ and 3+ armour saves along with 4+ or 5+ invulnerable saves and a multitude of useful Pieces of Wargear and members of their retinue.
With a powerful Inquisitor Lord Combat build you can have the majority of saves being better than 4+. 3 warriors with pistol and CC weapon (3 attacks each and 4+ saves) 3 acolytes with pistol and combat weapon (3 attacks each and 3+ saves) 3 Familliars with combat weapon (1 attack each and 6+ saves) 3 Heirophants with pistol and CC weapon (2 attacks each and 6+ saves). Inquisitor Lord with pistol and Force weapon (4 attacks at In 7 and a 2+/4+ save).
That unit should be able to deal with most Combat units the enemy can throw at them and an Initiative seven force weapon is not easily ignored. That is followed by 27 attacks at Initiative 3. It also has seven saves that are 4+ or better compared to six saves that are worse than 4+. This effectively gives you six expendable wounds for about 40 points without the risk of losing the bonuses given for having the Henchmen.
Powerful stuff there.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2009 15:45:22 GMT -5
Commissargaunt is making great points there, the Inquisition is not totally lost in the background, even though Melissia is also right that they are amongst the worst (if not the worst) armies at the moment. It just depends on who you are fighting, how are you using your units and how is the enemy. I don't think that at 1000p level a mechanized veteran guard army would be hugely better than the Inquisition, mainly more versatile.
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