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Post by rhetoric on Jan 22, 2008 7:19:56 GMT -5
I don't see this mentioned much on the forums. Maybe I didn't look in the right place but I was just wondering what everyone thinks about power armies? I mean ones designed to win regardless of fluff/flavour/sportsmanship.
Eg: It's possible to build an IG unit which has 25 ST6 AP1 shots hitting on a 2+. Did anyone else notice this?
I'm not into power gaming. I chose guard for the models and the fluff. I have a 3500 pts infantry army and I love the way it looks.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Jan 22, 2008 8:46:20 GMT -5
How would you go about creating such a unit?
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Post by fatuous on Jan 22, 2008 9:35:59 GMT -5
I am assuming that the example is an exageration. The way I see it is play how you want to play. If it's available in the codex then it is legal, people moan cheese about the good aspects of any army, but of course, their good units are well thought out, tactical choices and not cheese. I heard it suggested the using a HSO is cheesy because not every squirmish would be led by a HSO. Yes that is true, but it doesn't stop space marines taking a chaplain, or chapter master every game. People shout cheese in an attempt to stop u using units they don't want to have to counter. Don't let them. Of course, on the flip side, if ur army really is no fun to play against, you'll find it hard to find opponents, at least repeat ones. People could just as easily complain about you customising your army depending on the opponent. But to take the same list every game (unless ur at a tournament) is stupid, and unrealistic anyway. Any officer worth his salt realises that you take flamers against orks, and plasma against marines, it isn't cheesey to remove the plasma guns from ur list when facing orks,. Sry, but of a rant, and quite possibly totally off topic
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Post by rhetoric on Jan 22, 2008 10:01:50 GMT -5
I wasn't exaggerating. You can make the unit I described. In fact the shots might even be ST7, I don't have the codex here with me. I can check it when I get home.
Isn't the point of power gaming that it IS legal, and it IS in the codex? So you can use it, but most people would not want to play you.
I never field the super unit I mentioned above as I think it's a bit, well, silly and not much fun. What do you think though?
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Post by fatuous on Jan 22, 2008 10:22:12 GMT -5
You still haven't said what the unit is so it is ratehr hard to comment. Are you talking about maxing out on last chancers with plasma guns? or something like that, because in that case, it is wrong anyway.
The only weapons that hit on a 2+ are sniper rifles, or people with a BS of 5, this is not available to the guard, no one has a BS of 5 except possibly special characters, so 3+ to hits for a start.
And while it is technically possible to pay such a list, u would not have significant staying power IMO to win.
Can't comment further until u at least give us some idea what this super uber unit is. Because as is, I'm pretty certain it doesn't exist in the IG codex, at least not in the form u state.
The main problem with the whole issue of power gaming is where is the line between an interesting mix, that happens to be a great army, and an power army, except that 1 has fluff, and one doesn't.
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Post by sammy1979 on Jan 22, 2008 10:37:42 GMT -5
power players only get so many games then everyone avoids playing them, as its dull, see how many people @ your store/club/ group get a game once they turn out out a mega unbeatble army, i'm always counciling against people i know maxing out on the power models, the thing to remeber is its got to be fair and fun, i cant think of a unit like you suggest other then tooled up last chancers as described before, but even still dont do it, the best kit a guard general should wield on the battlefield is his treads, not some quasi marine.
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Post by rhetoric on Jan 22, 2008 10:48:06 GMT -5
I checked the codex. The unit gets 27 ST5 shots at 2+ to hit and AP1. It's nice for killing Marines etc. but like I said I don't use it as I think it's not very IG-like.
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Post by fatuous on Jan 22, 2008 10:53:06 GMT -5
And the unit is? ?? I can think of no S5, AP1 weapons anyway, let alone ones that can fire that much, and 2+ to hit is only BS5 or snipers, so how can u make the unit u describe?
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Post by rhetoric on Jan 22, 2008 11:12:56 GMT -5
I thought the IG super unit was well known. Am I allowed to post details of that kind of thing here or is it against the rules?
The details of the unit aren't important anyway, it's just the concept of power gaming I was wondering about. GW has always had quirks like the IGSU in their games. Like a 2nd ed WHFB Chaos Lord I once made who was immune to everything.
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Post by fatuous on Jan 22, 2008 12:10:09 GMT -5
As long as u don't post points, or stats then ur fine. e.g take 20 last chancers, make em all specialists, give them all melta guns and a power sword and run amok thru the ranks of smurfs every where I am very interested to hear of this unit now, tbh my experience with souping up guardsmen have all failed quite miserably. u can make them better shots, or better at cc combat, or give them an armour save, but they end up being v expensive, and still not as good as sisters of battle or space marines, and costing nearly as much per model. As far as the concept of power gaming goes, see sammys post, pretty much covers it. It is your hobby, your army and your time that you spend in making it. You can make it anyway you want. You just may not get as many games as you'd like. Any kind of gaming system like 40, role playing, deck building games, etc..... all have their beardy power players. In fact that is where a lot of people find their fun, in finding and exploiting loop holes. Not my bag, but who am I to say how people spend their time. I can choose not to play against them tho
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Post by rhetoric on Jan 22, 2008 12:23:02 GMT -5
Yep the points cost is the only problem with super units. But that's probably a good thing!
20 last chancers with meltas or plasma is nasty. They can kill an average of 12 SMs per shooting phase for a cost of 520 pts (including kage and scaeffer). But the IGSU I was talking about kills twice that many on average and is about the same price.
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Post by telecustom on Jan 22, 2008 19:24:21 GMT -5
Power gaming.....sounds like CSMs or Dark Eldar.
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Post by knight (M.I.A) on Jan 23, 2008 8:45:52 GMT -5
IGSU? Never heard of it. Has to be from an older codex or non-existent.
I personallydislike power gaming and always create my armies for fluff reasons. That sometimes even ends in JOs leading 2000 point armies. But everyone has to decide for himself if he wants to use power gaming or not. Most of the time they'll only have a few games before no one wants to fight them
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Post by rhetoric on Jan 23, 2008 10:02:56 GMT -5
IGSU? Never heard of it. Has to be from an older codex or non-existent. No, the unit is 100% real and legal and from the current edition. You can use it in a GW store. It costs around 600 points and gets a total of 81 shooting attacks, including the 27 ST5 shots at 2+ to hit and AP1 I already mentioned. I get the impression from the replies that this unit is not so well known after all...maybe I should patent it
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Post by sammy1979 on Jan 23, 2008 10:37:38 GMT -5
never seen that kind of thing and am intrested to see what you mean. but any IG player that uses it should be shot,maimed,shot and then finaly killed, the plesure with a IG army is the fact there rubish and shouldn't win matchs, but we do and its great watching some smarty pant assault marines getting shot to hell by the guard, stay away from power play its just wrong! but do explain this loophole its sounds un real to me?
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Post by rhetoric on Jan 23, 2008 10:44:22 GMT -5
never seen that kind of thing and am intrested to see what you mean. but any IG player that uses it should be shot,maimed,shot and then finaly killed I totally agree. There are always ways to exploit loop holes, it's inevitable in GW games as they are so complicated. Rogue Trader (40k 1st ed.) had countless oportunities for that kind of thing They have ironed out a lot of that over the years but I think it's still a fun challenge to try and construct super units. But only for fun, I don't ever use them. But the question I was trying to originally ask was where does the line fall on what's ok and what's exploiting the rules? Doesn't seem to be any way to decide.
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Post by sammy1979 on Jan 23, 2008 11:02:58 GMT -5
its voted on by the people you play, you try it , it works no one else plays you. it doesnt work you look like a asse, its sort of democratic.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Jan 23, 2008 11:16:03 GMT -5
Just please tell me the name of the IGSU or I'm going to remain highly dubious about its very existance
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Post by rhetoric on Jan 23, 2008 11:40:40 GMT -5
it doesn't have a name, it's just a particular combination of unit/options/wargear etc.
I call it a 'super unit' because although it's legal I think it's unbalanced.
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Post by fatuous on Jan 23, 2008 12:29:44 GMT -5
I'm ducking out of this, blatantly trolling and see no point of continuing.
N E 1 even know any S5 AP1 weapons available to the guard?
Don't encourage him
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Post by rhetoric on Jan 23, 2008 13:28:45 GMT -5
No I'm not trolling. The unit isn't even the point, I just mentioned it as an example. I was asking if people have a rule for when something is power gaming and when not.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2008 16:03:24 GMT -5
To put it bluntly.. power gamers get kicked out of clubs very very fast.. waaaaaay back in like 3rd edition fantasy.. we had 2 or 3 players that came from another town to play at our club and tournaments.. however they only came when there was a prize involved.. be it for winning a tournament, or painting or whatever..
Finally after about 3 or 4 tournaments of these guys showing up, and taking the prize the regulars that were always there began to take notice and look at what are they doing, as did the club member.. in the end we found that they were buying armies to play with, but saying that the paint jobs were theirs, and when the club owner got ahold of the club they used to play at ( but said they still did ) we found out that they had been kicked out for abusing the game, and the tournaments.. and were voted off the island so to speak..
What does this story have to do with power gaming? Well it just doesn't pay to play to win.. play to have fun, paint to show off your talent, convert to make them your own.. but in the end do it cause you like to and it makes you happy.. don't do it to be the guy who always wins, and can rub it into others..
Cheers Gris
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Post by knight (M.I.A) on Jan 23, 2008 21:40:29 GMT -5
No fatuous, I don't know any weapons with that profile at all. And I only know one weapon that hits on 2+ in the guard (besides some special characters)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2008 23:25:28 GMT -5
Posting in an epic (fail) thread.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2008 5:13:32 GMT -5
IGSU? Never heard of it. Has to be from an older codex or non-existent. No, the unit is 100% real and legal and from the current edition. You can use it in a GW store. It costs around 600 points and gets a total of 81 shooting attacks, including the 27 ST5 shots at 2+ to hit and AP1 I already mentioned. I get the impression from the replies that this unit is not so well known after all...maybe I should patent it Are you going to tell us what unit it is at all? Anyhow, power gaming is technically legal, but it playing with or against such an army is just not fun. about the heroic senior officer... It would probobly be more fluff than power gamming to play the HSO all the time, after all, the HQ is you on the field. Thats the description in the core rulebook. If you where to change rank just because you could'nt always muster as much force as you like then the system would be strange indeed.
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