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Post by Lord General Armstrong on Jul 1, 2011 22:58:31 GMT -5
This:  |
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Jul 1, 2011 23:26:20 GMT -5
Even a stormtrooper with a protagonist standing next to him couldn't miss that target. Please remember that even at those 'knife fight' ranges, the Imperium's ships still only hit things due to volume of fire. The Empire's ships hit still targets from orbit like turbolasers were guided missiles. And ISDs do have guided ordnance. A volley of proton torpedoes is no laughing matter - I'd say a VSD getting inside range and unloading would cause massive damage. Granted the Imperium's ships have mass to spare, but all the important stuff is on the outside: guns, communication, void shield generators...
And somehow, with the long ranges of 40K's navies, they still use fighters and boarding actions. The Empire would win those against the Navy, but probably not SMs.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Jul 2, 2011 9:06:45 GMT -5
Stormies are depicted as brutally efficient in fluff, and immune to almost everything not on their level of development Their armour is capable of stopping a blaster bolt at anything but close range. Kind of like the flak vests the Imperial Guard use, only with more coverage. Also, in the fluff, the Imperial Stormtroopers aren't basic infantry - they're a fairly specialised shock force of conditioned sociopaths. Vaguely equivalent to something like Inquisitorial/IG stormtroopers without the spec-ops training. (which, remember, is basically plasma guns and everything as win in close quarters) Just going to address this point. In the Star Wars fluff, blasters are clearly about as powerful as a lasgun. At several point, characters get shot by blasters, and get a sizeable chunk blown out of them, cauterising the wound, etc, etc. If you are hit by a plasma gun, you lose a limb. Hell, Space Marines hit by plasma guns lose limbs (unless your in the Henry Zouverse where a plasma pistol doesn't melt clean through Space Marine armour). The blaster is basically a lasgun. Full auto, no recoil, lots of shots, powerful, hi-energy field weapon. It is not a plasma gun. And Imperial naval infantry as being even more hardcore than stormies. Lolwut. |
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Post by Kaikelx on Jul 2, 2011 16:39:24 GMT -5
I think he meant the GE's Imperial Naval infantry....
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Jul 2, 2011 16:47:46 GMT -5
And I never said that blasters were S7. They're probably S3 or 4 depending on the make, and AP3. Disruptors are probably something around S10 AP2, but they're massively illegal, so... they probably don't enter the equation.
And stormies were too the rank and file of the Imperial ground forces. They're depicted as being as numerous as TIEs. And they do get some specops training, but nothing compared to Imperial Intelligence field operatives.
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Post by Empirespy on Jul 2, 2011 18:06:53 GMT -5
So they're basically like IG storm troopers.
I think a few demolishers will put them in there place...
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Jul 2, 2011 18:14:25 GMT -5
I'd rather take 15+ heavy bolters for near the same price if we're talking about cracking carapace armor.
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Post by Kaikelx on Jul 2, 2011 18:34:44 GMT -5
So they're basically like IG storm troopers. I think a few demolishers will put them in there place... Yes, just like a few GE tanks and armor would put IG infantry in their place...Armor tends to have that effect on infantry..... |
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Jul 3, 2011 1:40:42 GMT -5
The Empire's tanks are like a mix of Imperium and Tau tanks. I'd love to see something like that on the table.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Jul 3, 2011 8:22:56 GMT -5
And I never said that blasters were S7. They're probably S3 or 4 depending on the make, and AP3. Why? Tau pulse rifles are still AP5, and I'd say the Tau have demonstrably superior tech to the GE. Actually, since blasters can't even punch through ST armour save at close range, I'd make them AP6. Disruptors are probably something around S10 AP2, but they're massively illegal, so... they probably don't enter the equation. Since when did the Klingon Empire come to town? And stormies were too the rank and file of the Imperial ground forces. They're depicted as being as numerous as TIEs. And they do get some specops training, but nothing compared to Imperial Intelligence field operatives. I'd still wager a formation of Kasrkin against anything the Empire can throw at them in a small-unit engagement - for the simple sake of ferocity and fighting spirit. The Empire's tanks are like a mix of Imperium and Tau tanks. I'd love to see something like that on the table. One of the many attractions of 15mm Sci-Fi: Large-scale ground engagements between superheavy hovertanks. |
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Post by Walrus on Jul 3, 2011 8:27:35 GMT -5
I'd still wager a formation of Kasrkin against anything the Empire can throw at them in a small-unit engagement - for the simple sake of ferocity and fighting spirit. And faith. Storm Troopers fight because it is orders (as shown by Order 66). Kasrkin fight because it is the Emperor's will. Kasrkin will never run, can think for themselves for extended periods of time, and their hot-shot lasguns will punch through even GE Dark Troopers (ap3). |
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Post by Kaikelx on Jul 3, 2011 9:49:31 GMT -5
@thunder: Star Wars Disruptor: starwars.wikia.com/wiki/DisruptorWalrus: The Stormtroopers (At the very least, the Fett Clones) fight because it is the Emperor's will. Odd, huh? And you're making the Kasrkin sound bad. The Kasrkin will never retreat, but they are more than willing to run forward  . Also, Kasrkin can't think for themselves for extended periods of time? What? When did that happen? |
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Post by Walrus on Jul 3, 2011 10:14:09 GMT -5
I said they CAN think for themselves for long periods of time  |
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Jul 3, 2011 13:38:29 GMT -5
hot-shot lasguns will punch through even GE Dark Troopers (ap3). LIES AND HERESY. |
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Post by Kaikelx on Jul 3, 2011 15:10:16 GMT -5
hot-shot lasguns will punch through even GE Dark Troopers (ap3). LIES AND HERESY. For reference, Generation III Dark Troopers are sometimes classified as Bipedal Tanks, and have the weaponry to match at least a loaded down IFV |
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Post by Empirespy on Jul 3, 2011 17:34:16 GMT -5
Tau battlesuit?
I was playing battlefront 2 on PS2 today, the dark troopers seamed to die quite easily at the hands of my sniper rifle.
Any who, if the Imperium really wanted to win, we just have to talk to matt ward and say;
"Hey matt, could you re write the marine codex, it doesn't matter about balance issues?"
And viola we find out that the emperor isn't actually dead, but instead has been gathering trillions of men to turn into marines, each one is in artificer armour, and can not be killed in battle. They are all armed with a compact mega bolter which fires strength 10 AP 1 shots and they are all BS10.
Imperium wins.
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Post by Kaikelx on Jul 3, 2011 18:47:18 GMT -5
If the Tau battlesuit was unmanned, and geared up for anti-infantry/light anti-vehicle.
Battlefront 2 also has rebels on equal footing with Stormtroopers. AT-AT's are a joke, capital ships do nothing against each other, TIE Fighters can take on X-Wins one on one, all it takes is a single bomber to take down a frigate, the Mon Cal cruisers, despite being famed for redundancy, only have one of each critical system, Jawas ran around Mos Eisley (Can't spell it for the life of me) fixing up conveniently placed turrets for both sides...
Not exactly a reliable source of cannon, although it is a really fun game.
I think Jedi Outcast has accurate dark troopers in it....Whichever game you play as Kyle Katarn in...
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Jul 3, 2011 19:25:14 GMT -5
Dark Trooper were introduced in Dark Forces. And they look much better in that old game than they do with the redesign in the heretical Star Wars RTS games. No other FPS game had them, unfortunately.
RT countered my opinions with those of his own (valid tactic - we'll never know the truth of such a mash-up), except they give the impression that he hasn't read many of the books... I feel this is as good a place as any to say this:
George Lucas knows nothing of Star Wars (this has actually been demonstrated), and the movies should not be used as a reliable reference for comparing the Empire to anything. The books and comics and early games are the source of knowledge for Star Wars.
And so, RT (and everyone else), many of the books are great reads. I recommend them highly. I've never been as pleased with a BL book as much as with a Star Wars book.
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Post by Julian Sharps on Jul 3, 2011 19:59:02 GMT -5
Yeah, I still occasionally re-read the Thrawn trilogy and the X-Wing series.
Yub-yub, Commander!
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Post by Kaikelx on Jul 3, 2011 21:00:02 GMT -5
Oh god...not that song again...ARGH! Dancing teddy bears!!!
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Jul 4, 2011 4:47:00 GMT -5
For reference, Generation III Dark Troopers are sometimes classified as Bipedal Tanks, and have the weaponry to match at least a loaded down IFV No, I meant the AP3 "Hot-shot" lasguns. If you want to measure the actual combat potential of Imperial weapon, I have an armoury for you. And so, RT (and everyone else), many of the books are great reads. I recommend them highly. I've never been as pleased with a BL book as much as with a Star Wars book. Personally, while I've only read the three Thrawn books and the New Jedi Order trilogy, I've got to say that I rate Abnett and Sandy Mitchell's work over that of Zahn and his other authors. |
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Post by Kaikelx on Jul 4, 2011 9:59:00 GMT -5
Sandy Mitchell?
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Post by Trickstick on Jul 4, 2011 10:54:12 GMT -5
Sandy Mitchell is the best Black Library writer, in my opinion. He wrote the awesome Ciaphas Cain books, which inject a bit of humour into the setting.
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Post by Empirespy on Jul 4, 2011 11:12:40 GMT -5
Alex Stewart, wrote the Ciaphas Cain books |
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Post by Trickstick on Jul 4, 2011 11:15:13 GMT -5
Alex Stewart, wrote the Ciaphas Cain books Ah yes, I forgot that it was a pseudonym. |
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