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Post by Melissia on Aug 31, 2009 8:17:35 GMT -5
They'd have a highier revenue rate if they did update them more, and made them more readilly apparent, had more fluff for them, etc. I still get the occasional person whom hasn't ever heard of the Sisters despite playing for a year or so.
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Post by Woz on Aug 31, 2009 8:48:43 GMT -5
The problem with the Sisters is that they aren't one of the main armies.
I collected Sisters when they first came out in 2nd ed. Since then they've had one overhaul (when they became Witch Hunters) with new models and more stuff in the codex and thats it.
One problem is that the figures are metal = expensive = not many people collect them = GW don't see a need to push them or do plastic figures = they may end up going the way of the squats.
Another reason they don't sell many is because most new gamers are boys and boys don't want to play wussy girl armies.
GW Release a new ed of 40k and by the time they've done the codex's for their main armies (Smurf's, IG etc) it's time for a new edition of 40k. GW struggle to do all the major Smurf Chapters (Ultra's, DA's, BA's and SW's) with each new ed of 40k and there's more people who play them then WH's.
I wouldn't be suprised if WH's and DH's got merged into one codex.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Aug 31, 2009 9:05:27 GMT -5
They'd have a highier revenue rate if they did update them more, and made them more readilly apparent, had more fluff for them, etc. I still get the occasional person whom hasn't ever heard of the Sisters despite playing for a year or so. Yes, but their net profits would be lower, as they'd be putting in more money in terms of expanded costs than they would have in terms of return from revenue. In essence, GW dosen't think that DE or SoB's have reached the point where they will warrant reinvestment, yet.
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Post by cheminhaler on Aug 31, 2009 9:21:09 GMT -5
The problem with the Sisters is that they aren't one of the main armies. I collected Sisters when they first came out in 2nd ed. Since then they've had one overhaul (when they became Witch Hunters) with new models and more stuff in the codex and thats it. One problem is that the figures are metal = expensive = not many people collect them = GW don't see a need to push them or do plastic figures = they may end up going the way of the squats. Another reason they don't sell many is because most new gamers are boys and boys don't want to play wussy girl armies. In some ways I disagree. I have a couple of very old female Guard models from the Imperial army days. One is holding an autocannon (she could easily have Harker in a shootout). These models are priceless now. Its all about supply and demand - if there was a supply then there will be demand. How many other armies have female models? Dark Eldar /Eldar have 2/10 females per sprue. DE Wyches, Wood Elf Dryads, Necromunda Escher gangs, the Mordheim Amazon range. There was even a thread on this forum about a guy who made add on female bitz for Cadian plastics. I think there is demand, but if its enough for GW is unknown.
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Post by Woz on Aug 31, 2009 9:27:22 GMT -5
The problem with the Sisters is that they aren't one of the main armies. I collected Sisters when they first came out in 2nd ed. Since then they've had one overhaul (when they became Witch Hunters) with new models and more stuff in the codex and thats it. One problem is that the figures are metal = expensive = not many people collect them = GW don't see a need to push them or do plastic figures = they may end up going the way of the squats. Another reason they don't sell many is because most new gamers are boys and boys don't want to play wussy girl armies. In some ways I disagree. I have a couple of very old female Guard models from the Imperial army days. One is holding an autocannon (she could easily have Harker in a shootout). These models are priceless now. Its all about supply and demand - if there was a supply then there will be demand. How many other armies have female models? Dark Eldar /Eldar have 2/10 females per sprue. DE Wyches, Wood Elf Dryads, Necromunda Escher gangs, the Mordheim Amazon range. There was even a thread on this forum about a guy who made add on female bitz for Cadian plastics. I think there is demand, but if its enough for GW is unknown. But my point is that there isn't enough demand. Sure there are some people who play them like some people played Squats
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Post by Melissia on Aug 31, 2009 11:43:44 GMT -5
Which is an endless circle, woz. there's little demand because it's rarely updated and because it's rarely updated it remains inactive and because it's rarely updated there's little demand, and because there's little demand they add very little new fluff in, and because there's no fluff there's less demand than there could be, and because there's less demand there's fewer newer models, and because of that there's less sales, and because of that the model range is in all metal, and because of that they aren't as popular as they could be, and because of that... I dispute RT's categorical and uneducated guess that there would be less overall profits from the Sisters if, say, a few well-written BL books were put out about them putting them in a positive light, and then a new codex was released with a basic line of plastic models (IE, basic Bolter wielders and Pistol+CCW wielders, keeping special weapons, characters, etc metal and only gradually updatin them). Hell, even just a couple white dwarf articles a year and an updated FAQ that actually handles questions that need answering would certainly help convince people to buy into the army a helluvalot lot better than they are now. The status of Sisters' fire points are nebulous now for example, as the last WD article we had states two may fire out of each fire point, but the most recent rulebook-- newer than the WD article-- says one may fire out. Certainly, making the repentia not SUCK COMPLETE AND TOTAL ASS would help that particular set of models sell... I collected Sisters when they first came out in 2nd ed. Since then they've had one overhaul (when they became Witch Hunters) with new models and more stuff in the codex and thats it. For the most part, the Sisters are using the exact same models that were released in second edition, IIRC. Heck they still sell models that aren't even in the third edition codex anymore. Hell, GW itself is so damned inept when it comes to managing this army, that its website foces Sisters players to buy Rhinos from the Marines section, so it's not even getting accurate details on what exactly Sisters players are buying anyway.
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Post by Woz on Aug 31, 2009 12:34:13 GMT -5
I think that WH's/DH's just don't sell enough for GW to take much interest.
Look at Dark Eldar, they came out as part of the 3rd ed box game and at first lots of people bought them but when people stopped buying them (because they're a hard army to use) then GW sidelines them.
GW's newest army - "Tau" sold pretty well from the start and still sell well so GW will keep them going. Necrons must have sold quite well for them to get plastic models.
I just think GW will end up putting WH's and DH's into an imperial Allies codex.
What really gets me is the way GW release things peicemeal.
What they should do is release a new game (6th ed) with codex's for all the armies (if they do them together they'll be more balanced) and new models for all armies. Then they can bring out things for the expansion games like Apoc to keep them ticking over while they work on 7th ed (again with all the codex's).
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Post by Melissia on Aug 31, 2009 12:42:41 GMT -5
And the fact that they have had no support, little fluff, and are all metal only goes to further hinder the sales of the armies in question.
For that matter, Plastic models are much cheaper to make once you have gotten past the initial cost of the mold, so it actually makes MORE sense in the long term... they'd want to put them in plastic so that they don't have to make any new models in a while-- after they sell enough to break even with the cost of the mold, every model sold gives them much greater revenue than a metal model would.
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Post by Woz on Aug 31, 2009 12:52:13 GMT -5
GW know that plastic models will sell better but maybe they think they just won't sell enough for them to make it worth there while.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Aug 31, 2009 12:58:46 GMT -5
Categorical and uneducated!?
*Bristles with fury*
Yes, that Economics A-Level means bull. The acceptance to study Economics at Newcastle University means nothing, compared to the ramblings of some gun-crazy Texan!
*Calms down*
Look, it's very, very simple. Not many people want to play Sisters of Battle.
Fluffwise, they suffer from a very severe 'Mary Sue' complex, or else they're just complete asshats with no middle ground. Put bluntly, they are very much like Space Marines - either eternal, stoic defenders of humanity, or ravening bastards killing and burning without mercy. This precludes their being appealing in-fluff to most players, who could just collect Space Marines. So there's point one.
This makes it rather hard to write fluff for them, in particular when the fact remains most writers for the BL are male.
Secondly, the fact of the matter is that, due to the fact that the army is an all-female one, many of the noobtard players will not want to collect them. Personally, I would, but then I have to write a segment of fluff that basically has Drang terorrising them into surrender, possibly by threatening to unleash a daemonic incursion on a shrine world (I never include anything in my army that is contrary to my fluff), and that would just be silly.
Combining these two facts, we already have a strong predisposition amongst the gaming community to not collect them. Now, you argue that plastics would most likely cause people to want to buy them more. And you are probably right. However, the issue is that most likely, the increase in profits from the additional revenue would not equal the profits lost due to the increased costs of making new molds and rewriting the codex, and the BL fluff. You can scream and rant about this as much as you want, but ultimately, GW agrees with me on this one, and I'd say that the two of us know a damn sight more about economics than you.
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Post by Melissia on Aug 31, 2009 13:54:50 GMT -5
RT: anyone can claim to be completely educated in anything and everything on the internet (and with strong enough search-fu easilly fool a layman), and I haven't yet seen any particular insights from you on this particular subject to make such claims believeable. If this assumption urinees you off, I shrug and apologize. But I don't stop making it, because I know better than NOT to make such an assumption. GW know that plastic models will sell better but maybe they think they just won't sell enough for them to make it worth there while. Let's see... average infantry model sprue is 8"x10.5"x0.5"... so assuming highest quality.... $10,130 for a mold based on ICOMold's estimate for creation of a commercial mold. $4.31 material cost per mold for general quality plastic. $20 for a set of ten... GW would need to sell 645 boxes to break even, not including other external costs. The average person with a 2000 point army is going to have somewhere between 4 and 8 boxes depending on their army setups, with infantry-based armies obviously having more models, which means 162-ish people need to purchase 2000 points in order to break even. This is all hypothetical math though, based on what information I COULD find, as GW has not released any accurate information on how much their molds REALLY cost, amongst other things. Still, I don't think it's unfeasible to sell ~700 boxes wordwide... Edit: Actually it's 35-40 bucks per box set (40 for metal models, 35 for plastics), dunno why I put 20. So cut those numbers in half. 350 box sets to break even.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Aug 31, 2009 14:31:11 GMT -5
GW has a hole in their pocket somewhere along the line with the conceptualization/development/mass-manufacturing/distribution chain... So just add a random $1,000,000 to their overhead. Now, factoring in the increased cost passed to consumer and such, the model is closer to what we see demonstrated to date.
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Post by Woz on Aug 31, 2009 14:40:56 GMT -5
I think that if GW thought it'd make money then they'd have done it a long time ago. The fact that they haven't means that they don't think they could shift 350 boxes worldwide.
Some years ago a gamestore opened up in my town and they stocked almost the entire range from all the 40k armies. Within a year or two they only stocked SM's, IG, Orks, Eldar and the odd Tau and Necron (there may have been the odd GK's box as well). The reason being that these are the only ones that sold.
There was a brief surge in interest in WH's GK's when they first came out but that soon died down and then he just couldn't shift them and ended up flogging them on Ebay.
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Post by Melissia on Aug 31, 2009 14:42:48 GMT -5
While I know that the actual cost of it is going to be higher (shipping, wages), but it still shouldn't be THAT expensive to make, and the long-term benefits mean that once you actually pass the point where the mold has paid for itself, each box produced after that gives you much greater profits. It's a long-term thing over the short-term ones.
It also would have other benefits as well, such as extending the life of that portion of their intellectual propery by instilling new interest with plastics.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Aug 31, 2009 14:45:23 GMT -5
Like you said Melissia, you failed to include any other external costs. Permit me to highlight a few of these:
1. The minatures designer. Well, simply to create a whole new box of miniatures is probably going to occupy him for an entire year, plus, he won't be doing anything else for GW at that.
2. Now we have distribution. One needs to get it to every GW retailer, online or High street, probably with a decent release promo, to even hope of making a profit on this investment. That leads on to:
3. Marketing.....
Some other externalities include the fact that, retail-wise, this is probably going to switch revenue away from other lines of GW products....and the fact it will take up already limited shelf space....
Frankly, though, the main issue is not that it is, in itself, an unprofitable venture. It is most likely a case that GW has decieded that other ventures are more profitable, and, frankly, I'd agree with them.
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Post by Woz on Aug 31, 2009 14:54:02 GMT -5
But the thing is that no matter how much you like them there just aren't enough people who feel the same way as you do and GW know that.
After the Sisters came Necrons and then Tau. If Sisters had sold well to start with then GW wouldn't have wasted time and money making new armies and would've instead expanded the Sisters army.
I think the Sisters were nerfed from day one. There were limited models available and they were all metal so they cost too much. Also they're sort of a half way house between SM's and IG but they don't have have the gear that comes with each.
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Post by Melissia on Aug 31, 2009 14:55:26 GMT -5
Yes, but even including such things as wages you still wouldn't need to sell that many when you consider this is sales world-wide, and quite frankly most of those wages, aside from the actual sculptor whom does the miniatures, are already going to have to be paid regardless because they're doing their job for all the other armies, including the metal Sisters models.
Advertising would probably be done just like with everything else, pages in White Dwarf, box art, and sending word to the various fan-publications like Bell of Lost Souls. None of which is particularly expensive. Box art tends to just be a picture of some painted models on some terrain, White Dwarf is already basicly just a bunch of ads with some gaming stuff thrown in anyway, and sending a few emails with a decently written article and fluff sample from the codex isn't going to be too expensive either.
Wether or not it would be more profitable than other ventures, it's certainly more profitable than what they're doing with the Sisters right now, which is nothing. They're basicly letting this aspect of their IP fade into obscurity rather than attempting to squeeze more profit out of it.
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Post by Woz on Aug 31, 2009 15:12:26 GMT -5
Wether or not it would be more profitable than other ventures, it's certainly more profitable than what they're doing with the Sisters right now, which is nothing. They're basicly letting this aspect of their IP fade into obscurity rather than attempting to squeeze more profit out of it. Which is what they did with Squats. Lot's of people were up in arms when GW killed them off but the simple fact is that not enough people bought them when they were available.
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Post by Melissia on Aug 31, 2009 15:23:51 GMT -5
Which apparently wasn't the case with the Sisters, as they were put in third edition unlike the Squats. This along with the fact that upper-level officials such as Jervis Johnson have consistently and repeatedly said they're planning on updating the Sisters (albeit near the end of the five-six year cycle, which began last fall with C:SM) makes me wondering if you're just fear-mongering with your constant references to Squats.
Also, I think Squats just didn't fit in with their vision of the WH40K universe. The Sisters most assuredly do, given the extreme prevelance of religion in Imperial society.
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Aug 31, 2009 15:27:33 GMT -5
The way I see it is that so long as they're in the rule book we'll still get to use them, we'll see what happens in 6th edition.
(and it isn't like they've completely forgotten about the SoBs...just look at the cover of Soul Storm.)
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Post by Melissia on Aug 31, 2009 15:32:21 GMT -5
They haven't, no, but when was the last time that they had a White Dwarf article about them?
Answer: 1999 as the last mention in WD, 2002 was the last mention in CJ)
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Post by Woz on Aug 31, 2009 16:00:17 GMT -5
Do you think GW would let everyone know that they were planning on killing off an army?
Besides (as I've said before) I think they're more likely to be merged with DH's.
I only mentioned Squats because lots of people complained when they were killed off but (I think it was Jervis who said) they got killed off because not enough people bought them ( it had nothing to do with them not fitting into the 40k universe).
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Aug 31, 2009 18:11:21 GMT -5
I heard things to the effect of: GW says they will never again kill off a race like they did with squats.
And squats really didn't belong in the mix with the re-done new actually somewhat sci-fi feel they gave 40K. They fit fine with the "fantasy in space" style they had going for a bit...
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Post by Woz on Aug 31, 2009 18:51:53 GMT -5
I heard things to the effect of: GW says they will never again kill off a race like they did with squats. And squats really didn't belong in the mix with the re-done new actually somewhat sci-fi feel they gave 40K. They fit fine with the "fantasy in space" style they had going for a bit... They could've re-vamped squats and made them less comical and how did we still end up with Ratlings.
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Post by Melissia on Aug 31, 2009 19:32:10 GMT -5
You mention Jervis, Woz... he's the one that's contradicting your assertions that they will be combined into one codex. Numerous posters on the BnC sent emails to him from time to time, and each one of them got back a resposne from JErvis Johnson that said the same thing-- Sisters and Grey Knights are getting the focus, and they're going to be two separate codices.
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