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Post by Melissia on Jan 20, 2010 12:48:05 GMT -5
More importantly, let's get back on topic.
From Sister Rosette Soulknyt, on the BoLS Lounge. Essentially, GW is being tight lipped about this for the most part, and non-committal. But rumors state that a Grey Knights codex is out late this year or early next year, so it seems more likely that they're finishing up development of the two codices, and as they aren't finished yet they aren't spreading many rumors.
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Post by Hetfiltrator on Jan 20, 2010 17:53:06 GMT -5
I read the second page..... and started crying half-way through.....
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Post by Gabriel Lupus on Jan 20, 2010 19:41:33 GMT -5
I read the second page..... and started crying half-way through..... With joy, terror, humour or (the best option, and my choice for the day) insanity? so... Sister Rosette Soulknyt called GW (mail order?) in a flu induced state and got one of the most on the fence answers ever... which boiled down to "you can't get the codex, and they may or may not do something regarding the army(s)" (I can still buy the codex online and in store by the way...) Not that I've played many games using my sister in 5th ed, but I thought they performed really quite well - and I haven't changed the composition that I used in 4th ed (infantry force - no tanks/vehicles at all). But then again I think the Necron codex performs perfectly well - if not too well...
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Post by Melissia on Jan 20, 2010 19:49:11 GMT -5
Footslogger Sisters are decent, but against a good Guard army they're reduced to 4+ cover saves because of all the AP3 in the army, often pieplates.
The C:WH book is not in the American or British online stores, Gabriel Lupus, and that is what she was calling about.
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Post by Gabriel Lupus on Jan 20, 2010 20:37:15 GMT -5
interesting... - it's now gone when I check too... wasn't earlier...
Has anyone checked to see if it's in any of the other online stores? Does anyone remember what happened regarding the "1st" dark eldar codex when it got it's "2nd" ed reprint?
Having their save reduced to 4+ cover saves is the same problem Marines have... can't be that bad. Well, like I said, I haven't used my sisters much in 5th ed, so I can't really say much on the matter - I'll take your word (and experience) for it.
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Post by Melissia on Jan 21, 2010 9:37:31 GMT -5
Marines have toughness 4 to help deal with that problem. Sisters don't. Without their power armor they're essentially Guardsmen as far as durability goes. AP3 weaponry hurts Sisters more than it does Marines.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Jan 21, 2010 13:32:33 GMT -5
Mmmm....tasty hellguns....
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Post by Makarova (M.I.A) on Jan 21, 2010 13:57:07 GMT -5
Hellguns are also virtually the only weapon except other obscure small arms (Vespid guns, sternguard plasma rounds, thousand sons bolters) that is AP3 and not at least S6, so it doesn't make that much of a difference really.
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Post by Melissia on Jan 21, 2010 15:10:40 GMT -5
Also hellguns don't scare me, the units that carry them are easily wiped out by the heavy flamers that are in eveyr single one of my squads. No, it's not the hellguns, it's the pieplates.
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Jan 21, 2010 15:20:07 GMT -5
and pieplates you rightly should be afraid of,
hellguns aren't a huge threat when you only have 3 of them to worry about...
though...three full squads of stormtroopers might give a battle sister squad or two a run for their money...outranging those flamers and everything, taking saves against the bolters...wounding on 4+ and denying any saves from the opponent.
but'll cost the IG player big time.
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Post by Melissia on Jan 21, 2010 15:37:50 GMT -5
555 points for 30 models is getting close to Grey Knights territory. Higher than that if you use plasma instead of melta or get transports. If you don't use melta, I'll just sit in my transports and do heavy flamer from there. And receive ZERO casualties.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Jan 21, 2010 15:38:39 GMT -5
Actually....
10 Stormies will kill seven Sisters of Battle.
10 Stormies with plasma will kill between nine and ten.
Yes, it will cost more than the Sisters, but Sisters are horribly undercosted as it is and you're still looking at wiping one unit out in a single shot, which will leave you to, say, wipe out another.
Of course, Sisters can just engage shield of Faith...but the same applies to battlecannon rounds.
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Post by Melissia on Jan 21, 2010 15:42:02 GMT -5
10 stormies will kill seven Sisters of Battle, assuming that they fire first, and there's no cover saves, and they haven't taken any losses beforehand, and if the Sisters haven't lost their transport.
That's a lot of assumptions. Stormtroopers are not a threat to me.
Also, if you think Sisters are undercosted apparently you haven't looked at any recent codex. CSMs get more for their points, loyalist SMs get more for their points, Guard get more for their points, Orks get more for their points, and so on and so forth.
Sisters are NOT undercosted.
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Jan 21, 2010 15:59:06 GMT -5
555 points for 30 models is getting close to Grey Knights territory. Higher than that if you use plasma instead of melta or get transports. If you don't use melta, I'll just sit in my transports and do heavy flamer from there. And receive ZERO casualties. that would only be half my list at the most though... the rest of those points go to dirt cheap squads armed with weapons made to pop those trasports wide open... and don't forget the pieplates...I know I never do.
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Post by Melissia on Jan 21, 2010 16:01:10 GMT -5
But you could get more pieplates and more infantry with more firepower if you DON'T get stormtroopers.
I'd rather face off against stormtroopers than a list with lots of arty, heavy weapons, and LRBTs.
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Jan 21, 2010 16:07:14 GMT -5
Yeah, no denying I would be better off with out them...
but I like them damnit!
So much so that I just wrote a 1000 point list that uses 25 of them...just for kicks.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Jan 21, 2010 16:25:49 GMT -5
This is madness!
...
Carry on.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Jan 21, 2010 17:06:28 GMT -5
I do really love the Stormie models (well, the Kasrkin and the old one with Berets), and I do have 20 ofthem, half of them converted, but I never use them. Too expensive for what they do, and for what I could get for the same cost. Also, the fact that they're pretty much suicide squads has always been a downside. As Melissia points out, they're always one HF template away from being wiped, or Boltered to death, or what have you, and they just can't absorb those casualties and still make a dent.
If I want a one shot wonder, I'd take Penal Troops or Marbo or a Scout Sent or two instead. If i wanted a durable unit, I'd hang the cost and take either a PCS or a Vet squad in a Valk and get more punch in an armoured box that is more mobile.
Reds
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Jan 21, 2010 18:08:36 GMT -5
160 points...expensive, yes. But fairly decent against elite units. 7 dead Sisters, yes, not an effective return-on-investment, unless you add in plasma, in which case, 9 dead Sisters. Still not a return on investment, but one Sister, even if she has a heavy flamer (in which case, she is not stubborn and has Ld8) is not likely to wipe out the squad, leaving it free to continue marauding.
Same logic applies to Devestators, Retributors, Sternguard/Vanguard/Assault marines/Veterans, other stormies (though, again, a bit of a waste), all elite eldar units....
Stormies aren't inherently bad for their points cost, when considered as elites-killers.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Jan 21, 2010 18:51:03 GMT -5
160 points...expensive, yes. But fairly decent against elite units. 7 dead Sisters, yes, not an effective return-on-investment, unless you add in plasma, in which case, 9 dead Sisters. Still not a return on investment, but one Sister, even if she has a heavy flamer (in which case, she is not stubborn and has Ld8) is not likely to wipe out the squad, leaving it free to continue marauding. Same logic applies to Devastators, Retributors, Sternguard/Vanguard/Assault marines/Veterans, other stormies (though, again, a bit of a waste), all elite eldar units.... Stormies aren't inherently bad for their points cost, when considered as elites-killers. True, but there are cheaper, better things. Stormies need a lot of "ifs" to be fulfilled to work well. Those Sisters need to be out of their transport, near either a table edge or within 12in of where the Stormies DS (assuming they don't scatter and die), etc. It's also worth that, when arguing either for or against Stormies, there will be other units on the board as well, so looking at them as an isolated variable in combat is either inaccurate or part of a badly executed plan. Again, as RT says, they're not bad. I just have a lot more I want in my list that costs less and I find much more useful. If I have to choose between Stormies or a Ven, I'd take the Ven, so I can get three TL Las, a flank shot, a fast transport for the Vet squad I already have to take for FOC, etc. As for killing 3+ Infantry, I have enough units that can do that, and hit a Marine harder then an very angry Lasgun. So, again, they aren't bad. It's just that there is much better. Reds
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Post by vlady on Jan 22, 2010 2:29:24 GMT -5
I was disappointed that they never came out with the Ordo Xenos codex. I always liked the idea of a radical Xenos inquisitors. Kinda like fighting fire with fire without the chances of corruption from chaos.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Jan 22, 2010 4:43:15 GMT -5
Not really Reds. Consider this:
For the Russ to be effective, they also have to be out of their transport. The Russ also has to be able to draw LoS to it's enemy, and, believe me, if you're playing against a competent opponent, he will not let your LR draw, LoS to anything he values - he'll hide it behind buildings, behind wrecks, behind their own trasnport....Stormies don't have that problem. DS'ing Stormies get to r-roll their scatter dice, basically giving you a bloody good chance of their coming on exactly as you plan, they can infiltrate and scout (and thus, outflank). This gives you tremendous flexibility of fire-placement.
Veterans in a Valkyrie? Yes, I use those as well - the carapace, plasma guns (or meltaguns) and Demo charges come in bloody useful. And yes, they also function as elite-killers.
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Post by Melissia on Jan 22, 2010 11:16:29 GMT -5
Anyway, enough talking about stormtroopers. Unless you're referring to the inquisitorial kind, I ask that ya kindly move this debate to the infantry forum of this board and out of an INQUISITION related thread.
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Jan 22, 2010 11:21:46 GMT -5
Do you think they'll drop the inquisitional stromies or replace them with the current IG kind?
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Jan 22, 2010 11:45:30 GMT -5
I hope they keep them as-is, just updated to 5th -- as in... cheaper.
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