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Post by Trickstick on Mar 25, 2011 12:14:38 GMT -5
They can use multimeltas, lascannons and heavy flamers no matter what. The only random element is the rending/range/invulnerable table that you have to roll on.
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Post by cheminhaler on Mar 25, 2011 15:01:02 GMT -5
After going to GW last week, in the first time for ages, I was meaning to have a good look at the GKs and the codex, but just totally forgot. Plus I had Lizardmanitis on the brain.
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Post by F.K.M on Mar 30, 2011 4:53:13 GMT -5
This might sound strange but does anybody notice grey knights have a huge lack of anti-heavy tank? This means if some jack ass took 2 land raiders (not even mentioning achilles) they'd get their asses kicked. I say this because grey knights are mostly oriented towards elite choices and assault. They have decent ranged attacks but notice a large lack of lascannons in most of their stuff except dreadnoughts and jokaero. Now considering jokaero are expensive points-wise and probably have nuts BS a more effective choice would be nice. I suppose a ton of jokaero mounted in a chimera would do it. However if somebody wanted to do a full grey knight list they'd avoid inquisitors. Terminators and possibly paladins also lack large numbers of daemon hammers or at least in the new box set they seem to. Then we have librarians and dreadknights armed with daemon hammers. Now this may sound like a lot but it's not. All of the power armored troops and terminator type troops can't do jack except for the odd guy with a thunder hammer. Hoping to god you have a librarian (if grey knight librarians still have a str 10 psychic power) or more likely a dreadknight with a thunder hammer or dreadnought armed for the task you'll do alright even if you need to keep it alive. I suppose there may be psychic powers and maybe i just haven't read the codex enough yet but to me a land raider or esp. 2 would fornicate grey knights esp. if they don't have jokaero spam or possibly a dreadknight with daemon hammer.
I suppose if they have predators, land raiders and stormravens with lascannons that could work but my point is having infantry up to the task of anti-heavy tank killing. The problem is grey knights for the most part don't have the numbers of heavy weapons for killing heavy tanks. We may actually have to see a jokaero spam in chimeras to counteract this weakness.
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Post by Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four on Mar 30, 2011 17:46:01 GMT -5
Hmmm, aside from Jokaero, the only shooting anti-tank that they have, based on my reading of the codex, consists of Space Guppies with multi-meltas, Lascannon Razorbacks, and possibly Dreadnoughts with TL lascannons, and Daemonhosts with Unholy Gaze (but that's totally random).
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Post by F.K.M on Mar 30, 2011 19:05:46 GMT -5
See it's really not that much when you think about it. Then again daemons have worse anti-tank but meh. I mean what would daemons use? They have some rending daemons and soul grinders. I've seen some daemons armies with no options for taking on heavy tanks.
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Post by Deathkorpsman on Mar 31, 2011 4:33:31 GMT -5
I think the Orbital Strike relay will fill this role pretty well, and the GK have plenty of models that can take it. They also have a couple models that can take conversion beamers, if they choose to. That on top of Psycannons being capable (though not exactly great) of hurting even a Land Raider means they aren't really weak on anti-armor.
And with Stormravens spewing h2h units into my battle lines, a lack of lascannons will be the least of my worries. GK can get A LOT of daemonhammers if they want. Rifleman dreads are also going to be an issue for anything under AV14.
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Post by Gree on Apr 3, 2011 19:46:25 GMT -5
I will say I dislike the new GK codex. Or more accurately the fluff.
For example we have a Grey Knight Grand Master Draigo, defeating a Daemon Primarch and his bodyguard alone and unaided.
For example we have GK turning on their Sister allies in mid-battle, killing them in a blood ritual in order to defeat a daemonic army. I’m not making that one up. I’m serious, check it out.
But what I really dislike is the fact that it flat out states that most Guardsmen who fight alongside the Grey Knights are executed after the battle. There are exceptions, but those have to undergo mind-wiping (which is stated to have a high morality rate o fit’s own) I wanted my Cadians to fight along Grey Knights and not get executed after the battle. I guess I’ll stick with my Praetors then.
I mean, I could go into a long-extended rant about the many, many bits of fluff I dislike. You guys remember the anti-Brothers of the Snake rant I had a while back? I can top that. But I won’t.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Apr 3, 2011 20:13:23 GMT -5
Feel free to Gree.
I always wondered: Does the Imperium routinely execute the entire population of Cadia after every major daemonic incursion?
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Post by Trickstick on Apr 3, 2011 20:18:48 GMT -5
Just get revenge by assuming that a battle against the grey knights is an attack upon Titan, ordered because of their new, heretical ways.
No marine chapter could stand up to a fully fledged Guard invasion. That is one of the points of making chapters so small after all.
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Post by Gree on Apr 3, 2011 21:22:50 GMT -5
No marine chapter could stand up to a fully fledged Guard invasion. That is one of the points of making chapters so small after all. Draigo could theoretically take out an entire battle group on his own. I'm only half-joking. He single-handedly covers the retreat of a Cadian regiment from a daemon horde, kills Greater Daemon casually and romps through the Warp itself killing everything. It's stated only the most blood-crazed Khorante daemons dare challenge him now and they still get pwned. In fact the most powerful Grey Knights are stated to be able to ressurect the dead and banish greater daemons with a word or something like that. I wish I was making this up.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Apr 3, 2011 21:27:48 GMT -5
I second this, I'm always up for a bit of ranting against Matt Ward's fluff. Apparently he's writting the Cron codex too... Reds
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Apr 3, 2011 22:08:49 GMT -5
Gentlemen.
Prepare the Earthshakers.
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Apr 3, 2011 22:28:30 GMT -5
Grey Knights killing Guardsmen and mind erasing Space Marines is not new.
I've never considered the idea of them showing up on my planet to be a good thing... and yeah, killing Battle Sisters to use their blood to fight Daemons does not really shock me either, they'll do what ever it takes to fight deamons...they're a bunch of bastards like that.
Grey Knights = Space Douchbags
It's like Matt Ward was reading my mind...
but then he went and mucked it all up with ridiculousness because he has a massive boner for anything that has to do with Space Marines.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Apr 3, 2011 22:44:57 GMT -5
Thirded. In fact, I demand it. Make some free time, and catharsis yourself a rant of awesome, bittersweet hilarity.
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Post by Gree on Apr 3, 2011 23:12:44 GMT -5
Thirded. In fact, I demand it. Make some free time, and catharsis yourself a rant of awesome, bittersweet hilarity. Alright, I''ll do that. but it won't appear for at least a day. I have college work to finish.
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Post by Gree on Apr 4, 2011 18:02:13 GMT -5
I apologize, but I’m not retyping quotes. I found it exhausting in my last rant. Much of this was copy-pasted from various other rants I participated in and edited together along with my own revisions..
Let me start off with Draigo. He, alone and unaided is able to defeat a Daemon Primarch and his entire bodyguard alone and unaided. Draigo can then knock the Primarch down, hold him down and carve his name in his heart.
Words fail to describe it.
He banishes M’kar the Reborn, a daemon prince while he is still a fresh battle brother. He banished M’kar again and then is sent to the realm of Chaos, where he can apparently survive. He has killed a Bloodthirster with his broken sword, taken said Bloodthirster’s axe and reforged it into a new sword. He had then burnt down Nurgle’s garden, killed M’kar for the third time and then demolished part of Tzeentch’s own fortress.
It’s like this guy romps around the warp and pwns everything. Nothing can stop him. No Astartes should be a match for a daemon primarch. No matter how badass they are. Draigo is pulling off things the primarchs themselves would not be capable of at this point. Hell, he killed a Bloodthirster with a broken sword and even Sanguinius was extremely hard pressed to bring one of those things down and he was a demi-god.
And we have a piece of fluff where the Grey Knights turn on the Sisters to halt the Bloodtide. Essentially a Khornate blood-corruption army-thing is unleashed upon the world and a lot of Sisters and PDF die. The Grey Knights arrive, take stock of the situation and kill the Sisters in a ritual in which they anoint their armor and blood to fight he daemons. Where to begin……..
it makes no sense that killing the Sisters was needed. They don't need any additional stuff to help ward against corruption, they're already incorruptible. Says so in the codex. Not one has ever fallen to Chaos. Furthermore, these Sisters showed no signs of corruption, or anything that might indicate treachery. They killed them just cuz. Engaging in khornate style rituals and murdering exceptionally pure battle nuns would be heresy if any other marine did it. But suddenly, GK's do it and no problem. The thing is, up until now, Grey Knights were never seen killing allies before the threat of Chaos was delt with, only after. Wouldn't you think that the GKs would accept allies who'd seen Chaos for just long enough to defeat Chaos, then kill them? If they did that, I'd be fine. But no, not only do they do something idiotic and weaken their forces by murdering quite exceptional allies before hand, but they also make themselves look Khornate in the process.
And then we have the whole revised image of the Grey Knights. Mat Ward has stated in an interview he had deliberately made the Grey Knights into sorcerers. This flies against their previous fluff as the pure knights. Now they are described as using forbidden sorcery and embracing themselves in the weapons of their enemies. (I’m paraphrasing here)
Sorcery using the same powers that daemons wield is explicitly described. One of the Grey Knights even comments on it. This is an injustice. Sorcery as defined by Dark Heresy is use of the daemonic powers of the warp in rituals. Ward isn’t’ making a mistake here. Ward identified it as the same power the daemon use, but he says it okay because the GK can handle it.
Previously the GK were incorruptible because they didn’t engage in such activities. Previously they were the ultimate puritans who never used sorcery. Now we have them as sorcerers fighting alongside daemonhosts.
The new White Dwarf interview with Ward makes it clear that the Grey Knights are now the epitome of Radicalism. Radicalism was almost always self-destructive. The GK previously were pure and puritan because they didn’t engage in such things and they avoided the influence of the daemonic at all costs, they were the ultra-puritans. Now Ward has made them into radicals and put forth some poor justifications. They seemingly can now do anything.
They are now either Mary Sues who can use Chaos safely, or arrogant hypocrites who are being corrupted by the powers.
Oh, and we have a Grey Knight carrying a Daemon weapon around. The fluff for castellan Crowe is that the sword he carries is so dangerous that it would start corrupting the minds it’s jailers if it were locked up. Apparently it’s so dangerous that only the purest of the pure can carry it.
And Crow is a purifier. A faction of Grey Knights who are more pure then the rest of his brothers. I’m not especially sure how that’s supposed to work as Grey Knights are already completely pure so logically peaking you can’ t be puerer than that.
Anyway he wields the daemon weapon into battle, but apparently it’s okay since he doesn’t use it’s abilities this is a horrible idea mainly for that a battlefield is a very dangerous place. All it takes is a lascannon shot and Crowe is dead and he daemon sword is lying about for anyone to pick up. All it takes is Crowe’s death on the battlefield and a Grey Knight defeat to ensure this super-dangerous daemon sword is free.
That’s just stupid. It's just chock full of contradictions. Grey knights are pure - but he's purer. Grey knights detest the daemon - but he's using a daemon weapon and bargaining with daemons to use sorcery.
Also, if the Grey Knights are all pure than what’s the dangerous in them not just locking it away and guarding it 24.7? Ward contradicts himself again.
Guardsmen are executed as pretty much standard procedure. Astartes are mindwiped. This creates problems with established fluff. We have many, many examples of Astartes fighting daemons without mindwiped. The White Scars even purse a daemon prince halfway across the galaxiy and the Ultramarine have incorporated it into their histories. (M’kar the Reborn)
The little blurb for Artificer Armour says that the number of suits the Grey Knights possess is 'testament to the requisitioning power that is the gift of the Inquisition's patronage'.
The only Grey Knights who actually wear Artificer Armour are Brotherhood Champions. According to the Champion's entry there is only one per Brotherhood. There are eight Brotherhoods.
Thus either the Grey Knights have loads of suits of Artificer Armour in store, or the Blood Angels (30 suits with the Sanguinary Guard alone) are *really* awesome...
And Ward’s prose speaks for itself. The entire Codex is written in a overly bombastic and self-righteous tone. Upon reading the section of the brother-Captains, apparently each Brother-Captain has something like a dozen titles at least, all of which are hilarious poorly written like ‘’Slayer of the Bloodbeast’’ and ‘’Liberator of the So and So Sector.’’
And then we have this sentence written by in the Purgator Squad section.
This sentence is ridiculous overblown and childish.
And then we have the Grey Knights Paladins, super-elite Terminators who can only achieve said rank if they kill a Herald of the chaos gods then kill one of the 666 most powerful daemons ever. All while armed with only a force sword and the true name of the daemon.
And then we have Thawn, a Justicar who is immortal. He keeps in resurrecting himself when he dies. No, really. He’s died several times only to keep on coming back to life. I wonder what would happen if he killed Lucius.
Oh yeah the GK have their own Forge World as well.
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Post by F.K.M on Apr 5, 2011 6:14:53 GMT -5
I don't know how incorruptible sisters are but purging the minds of space marines and mind wiping very loyal and exceptional underlings and killing off guardsmen en masse is normal for the inquisition and grey knights. As far as sisters go it sounded kind of retarded though. The whole blood sacrifice part during a khorne invasion sounded beyond retarded for them to do considering they are experts at fighting daemons.
I don't mind some of the fluff to be honest and i wish they turned the guy that keeps coming back to life into a sort of jesus christ character. It would totally, totally work i think.
I will admit lord draigo sounds overpowered. However in the previous codex i remember them saying grand masters had the ability to banish a greater daemon with one stab of their nemesis force weapon.
I'm unsure with their purifier special character but i do think it's stupid he uses it in combat against those who would want it. Why don't they just put a nutsload of seals on it and just lock it up? Besides as you said grey knights are supposed to be incorruptible.
I don't have the book but i think they were referring to terminator armor rather than artificer armor on how much of it they have. Something like they could deck out the whole chapter in terminator armor. This sort of seems overpowered but they are the super elite grey knights. Besides at least they're nowhere near as gay as storm shield termies something grey knights thankfully don't have.
I don't see why you want to fight over matt ward even though he's as dangerous as a child with a gun in his hands and his favorite hobby is jizzing over stories of marines and writing them to be the super most awesome things ever.
Don't get me wrong i have problems with the fluff matt ward created and i haven't read it all but there are a lot of things in the previous codexes that have changed after time. Not to mention the books have been getting larger and larger due to more fluff, units and pictures. Now i haven't read most of the fluff stories myself due to the utter heresy you claim of matt ward but for some reason it doesn't urine me off as much. I love 40k and fantasy to death but i can deal with some of this for some reason. There's no reason for me to nerd rage. However i will endlessly female dog about elves and elf players as they generally exhibit the same characteristics of elves (arrogance and prickishness).
I just hope they don't screw up the necrons. I don't care much for space marines but necrons are kind of cool. Funny thing is the eldar lore is still somewhat messed up in the whole necron and slaanesh back story i think. What really caused the eldar gods to die the necrons or slaanesh? This is important as it deals with 2 races at least and one chaos god. So how is this going to be approached in the necron and eventually eldar codex? Will it just be never mentioned or what?
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Post by Gree on Apr 5, 2011 8:35:35 GMT -5
I don't know how incorruptible sisters are but purging the minds of space marines and mind wiping very loyal and exceptional underlings and killing off guardsmen en masse is normal for the inquisition and grey knights. I'll quote RT. Do they execute the entire population of Cadia after every Black Crusade? and the mind wiping fluff has not been used in a long time. Re-read my post. We have Marine chapters who hunt daemons across the galaxy and incorperate anti-daemon battles into their history.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Apr 5, 2011 8:58:21 GMT -5
Gree: Bravo sir. Your argument is much more precise, well reasoned, and coherent than anything I could hope to muster. I salute you. The "justification" I've seen tossed around for the GK's use of Warp powers is that they've somehow figured out how to safely how to use it because they approach it scientifically, as opposed to with the mysticism which everyone else does. Ignoring how pants-crappingly stupid that explanation is, it's stated over and over again that the warp ALWAYS corrupts anyone who uses it. I think Ward read in the old fluff about GK being incorruptible, and thought "Oh, so they can use the Warp and it's okay!", and never thought that the reason the GK were so pure is that they abhorred and strengthens themselves against the warp with such diligence. I was particularly angry about the stupid and needless re-write of how the GK were founded. It was moved to during the Heresy, had Malcador hide Titan in the Warp using sorcery, and had them pop out of the warp right after the Heresy already organized into a Chapter, before the Ultras even floated the idea. That's part of the reason I'm so annoyed with this. Not only does Ward essentially make GK the exact opposite of what they were, but he writes whatever he wants with no concern for the rest of the 40k fluff. Reds
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Post by The Envoy (AWOL) on Apr 5, 2011 10:12:20 GMT -5
Gree, some of that fluff is just pants wettingly stupid. Draigo must be the Emperor in disguise if he can do any of that, because if I remember correctly, it took a Grandmaster and a large contingent of Terminators, to just banish Angron to the Warp for 100 years. It just boggles the mind.
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Apr 5, 2011 12:59:46 GMT -5
I was particularly angry about the stupid and needless re-write of how the GK were founded. It was moved to during the Heresy, had Malcador hide Titan in the Warp using sorcery, and had them pop out of the warp right after the Heresy already organized into a Chapter, before the Ultras even floated the idea. No longer chapter 666 eh? that is pretty lame...
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Post by The Envoy (AWOL) on Apr 5, 2011 13:06:55 GMT -5
I'm actually surprised they aren't an offshoot of the Ultramarines.
Edit: Then again, maybe in Ward's mind they are.
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Post by ogguardsman on Apr 5, 2011 13:54:46 GMT -5
It really isn't surprising that we've reached this point with GW fluff. It's been slowly heading in this direction for a while. The SM fluff has never been consistent or well thought out.
Rogue Trader was more of a skirmish size tabletop game and over time GW has tried to make it bigger, be it with IC point sinks, hello 3rd Ed, or the current trend towards bigger armies, Apocalypse, they've chosen to rewrite the fluff instead of trying to maintain most of it.
Is there anything in Matt Ward's GK fluff that adheres to the previous Inquisitor books by Ian Watson and Dan Abnett or the Grey Knight books by Ben Counter or any earlier codexes? No. What you have seems to be more about marketing than adhering to the game fluff. New Improved Grey Knights with 90% more whup a$$ per can! It's overselling to such a degree that it comes off as juvenile fanboi wanking. If you put out cool new minis in plastic kits for a interesting thematic SM chapter and a codex that creates balanced playable lists people will buy them and play them. You don't need to make every IC into a BAMF that's tougher than the Emperor himself, that's just dumb.
I really like the new trend of having HQ choices that affect FOC because that's how it should be, my HQ should be a reflection of me and allow me to some limited freedom to tailor the army to my play style. Different troop choices, unit options, abilities etc. are where the character's value is more so than a fluff backed stat line and wargear that gives commanders more killpower than a superheavy tank. I don't see the payoff of going backwards towards the old my IC/MC/HQ vs your IC/MC/HQ with the rest of the army just there to fill up the points.
The only excuse that makes things like Draigozilla somewhat understandable is the stupid move by Ward to declare that the GK only have 1000 marines with which to safeguard the entire Imperium of Man from Daemons. They would be stretched so thin that you would never see more than like 5 GKs sent anywhere. Given that crazy limitation, we really need GKs to protect us from Chaos and the Warp but shouldn't have enough actually do the job, then the GKs have to uber awesome because otherwise they'd never win and Chaos would have taken over a long time ago.
I won't rant any more because I haven't read the actual codex and most of what irks me about GW (I've been collecting off and on since the early 1990s) is more general in nature and that would be a bit off topic in this thread. This isn't really nerd rage as I'm really not emotionally invested in the game but it really disappoints me that there's such a lack of professionalism and oversight at GW because it really would not have taken much effort at all to stop somebody like Ward from just dropping trou and defecating all over the established canon.
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Post by Gree on Apr 5, 2011 17:37:34 GMT -5
I'm actually surprised they aren't an offshoot of the Ultramarines. Edit: Then again, maybe in Ward's mind they are. They are confirmed to have the Emperor's geneseed in the new Codex.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Apr 5, 2011 18:33:32 GMT -5
I'm actually surprised they aren't an offshoot of the Ultramarines. Edit: Then again, maybe in Ward's mind they are. They are confirmed to have the Emperor's geneseed in the new Codex. Then, clearly, they are all as awesome as Big Daddy E, and should each be able to secure sectors by themselves. With evil powers of destruction. And mecha of ultimate pwnage. And then killing all the allies they went to save when they're done. Or... you know... before. Whatever.
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