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Post by Rolling Thunder on Sept 24, 2009 9:23:57 GMT -5
Operation: Rolling Thunder.
Now, let's be frank. I love Valkyries. Love them, Adore them, adore the model, adore the fluff (what little there is, most of which I made myself, frankly), adore the whole concept behind them. They are the sexiest, hotest looking thing to venture onto the gaming board since Makarova lay absol-
*Is garrotted, briefly*
Right, here's the premise. The Valk has, let's be frank, one of the longest scout moves in the game. If you get first turn, you can basically sit that raptors wing anywhere on the field. The only one limitation - not within 12" of an enemy unit.
Sooooo...time for some fun
1. Scout Valkyrie/Vendetta to within 12" of enemy wished dead.
2. First turn, disemark unit(2" disembark move), move towards enemy.
3. Fire guns at enemy. Remember to fire the guns on the Valk/Vendetta as well, since it's stationary this turn, though, if I am correct, you can actually move the Valk/Vendetta away during the movement phase, as it counts as having not moved at all, once your men disembark.
4. Assault enemy.
And of course, this can also be done with GK's if you really, really have to break your opponent into teeny tiny pieces. Personally, I still prefer it with veterans against elite enemy troops, or, better yet, tanks.
The sheer brilliance of this tactic is, that, not only is your opponent going to be having a serious brainfreeze with a Guard player actually attacking that it will most likely disrupt his offensive plans to such an extent that any push he makes on your gunline is likely to be a weak, one or two unit attack easily disposed of with massed firepower. Most people presume Guard players, given the first turn will stand back and shoot.
Another wonderful little nuance is that, with the fact that at least two of the key elements of his army are now in smouldering, burning ruins/cut into pieces by white-hot plasma/wreathed in Promethium, coupled with the fact your Valkyries have just caused quite a few infantry casualties, means that the Veterans, assuming you've been wise enough to give them carapace, are actually going to survive, most likely, until the second turn, where they will go forth to wreak more carnage. Sure, your opponent can focus all his effort on killing them and smashing the Valkyries, but if he does, you can just laugh and pummel him from range with utter, utter impunity.
A third fact is that this tactic, being named for me, is awesome, as is everything about it.
Disclaimer one: I do not endorse this tactic's use against beginners or anyone who is undeserving of having it used against them. Doubly so if you replace the 'Veterans' with 'Grey Knights'.
Disclaimer two: Make sure you hit their lines at a weak point, or, at least neutralise the stong ones. Remember, this tactic focuses on one thing - you, co-ordinating the two or three offensive elements of your force into a cohesive, powerful attack, spported by the rest of your force. Be selective with your targets. If your playing, say, a Blood Angels army, and your opponent has clustered all his army into a single blob, then this is not the tactic to be used here. If, however, he spreads out into a line of battle, then it is. Send plasma veterans to kill the Death Company (preferably weakened with a battlecannon shot first). Be clever, and be selective in your targets.
This tactic is even more ruthless when applied en masse. Deploying 1500 points of Valkyries and Veterans to close-quarters with an enemy simultaneously is a sure-fire way to gut their army in a single attack.
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Post by joemamasan on Sept 24, 2009 15:44:16 GMT -5
Well Thunder, you may have made me a believer. I have been resistant to getting the Val/Vendetta for the simple fact I’m cheap. I already have a huge IG force and didn’t want to invest into another model that I may or may not use in games. I suffered my first real 5th edition loss last week to a 2k Ork army. If I would have put my Vets in a Vendetta it would have changed the game. Time to call the Warstore.
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Post by Julian Sharps on Sept 24, 2009 16:22:17 GMT -5
One more trick I'll be trying once I get the opportunity...
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Post by Laughing Man on Sept 24, 2009 17:03:06 GMT -5
I have my guard playlist it includes ride of the valkyries for obvious reasons.
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Post by Julian Sharps on Sept 24, 2009 21:25:59 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2009 7:23:23 GMT -5
I'm with RT here, Valks/Vendettas are the sexiest thing in 40k. I've been using them in almost every game I've had in the last 6 months or so, and have proven to be either good or godlike against every army I've played against. Depending if you are using them as back-up (as RT) or as the knife the cuts the enemy, using 6 or more of them (like me) you will be looking at a bit different approach.
When using a few as back-up I'd suggest putting in a SWS (special weapon squad) armed with 2-3 demo charges (depending on the points limit), or if you want a more "regular" approach, a veteran team with demolitions and flamers. Either one will obliterate most things they wind up against the turn they jump out of their craft (remember, if you are using the veterans and have an unit of eldar, guard, gaunts etc. you might want to save the demo charge, or if you have a SWS with 3 charges you might not want to use all at one time). The great surprise factor is also that as it is assault, you can use it and charge if needed (especially good with demolitions as they get melta bombs too).
When using them as in numbers, I suggest Veterans with either Carapace and Plasmas, or Demolitions and flamers/meltas. This way you'll have great killing power, and great mobility with all your force. This propably doesn't need more explanation, and I suggest everyone to try this style at least once.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Sept 25, 2009 12:04:50 GMT -5
*Gasp!*
You put a disclaimer suggesting that a player not use an overwhelming and unnecessary amount of force to crush any and every opponent until there's not enough left to fill a teaspoon? And you say you're like Kurze...
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Sept 25, 2009 12:36:29 GMT -5
Why bother? Do this to a new player, and all that'll happen is that he'll stop playing. Loss for us all.
I especially don't want anyone using this against new players who use an army that isn't Space Marines - such younglings don't need discouraging further (well, further than GW discourages people playing anything not Space Marines).
This tactic is to be used against powergamers, people who badmouth the Guard, and in fact anyone who's been playing for over a year and still uses a Space Marine army.
And it is to at all times be referred to as 'Rolling Thunder'. Or else.
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Post by Colonel-Commissar, (M.I.A) on Sept 25, 2009 20:13:42 GMT -5
Genious tactic,but I suggest a change in the name due to it sounding like a total dedication to your evil mind that thought of tactics to make an ork cry
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Post by scythexv8 on Sept 26, 2009 5:18:26 GMT -5
I've tried the newly named "Rolling Thunder" tactic a while ago in my third game with the new codex against an Ork mob, with the support of A Hellhound, Demolisher and a few Ogryns. It was the first time I played so aggressively against Orks; well worth it as I had all their transports destroyed or immobile on turn 1. Result: at least 1 Valkyrie & Vendetta in each battle. They're SEXY!!!
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David
Lieutenant
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Post by David on Sept 26, 2009 7:52:52 GMT -5
I can also attest to this tactic.
All my 1,000 point lists have had a valkyrie, vendetta and vulture in them (at first just for the alliteration). Placing plasma carapace vets in the vendetta and melta CCS in the valkyrie give a great first strike opportunity.
However even when you don't have the first turn, using the vendetta and vulture to hang back to counter attack and the valkyrie to outflank gives great versatility and keeps your opponent on his toes.
Lastly I would like to point out that to use this tactic effectively it is best to have these aggressive attackers supported by long range firepower such as heavy weapons or artillery. As such the enemy will have to make a choice in pounding the attackers or pressing forward to your lines (either choice can be capitalized on).
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Post by druchi on Sept 26, 2009 12:30:47 GMT -5
This was the exact nefarious scheme I had in mind for my two valks. =D
EDIT: Would taking a Vet squad with Bastone be a wise decision? I think the idea of allowing melta/plasma to re-roll hits would make it an instant kill squad against MEQ's or Tanks but is it worth the points?
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Sept 26, 2009 13:46:51 GMT -5
Not really.
With Meltas, 2 out of three meltagun hits is enough to scrap any tank reliably (considering you will be hitting the side armour, most likely, and the fact you destroy tanks on a 4+ (3+ with battlewagons!)). That extra re-roll is nice, but, frankly, a extra plasma pistol shot is much, much nicer, as is carapace armour.
With plasmas, it's utterly pointless, unless you are going up against Nidzilla, or a Space marine player who always hugs cover, in which case, might I direct you to Lord RedsandRoyals seminal text: "On the Deployment and Employment of the Emperor's Most Holy Banewolf", or just lasgun spam.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2009 13:49:11 GMT -5
And since your veterans are in Valks, you can fly to the side of the cover they're hugging, blasting them apart (unless they are in area terrain).
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Sept 26, 2009 14:10:52 GMT -5
"On the Deployment and Employment of the Emperor's Most Holy Banewolf", or just lasgun spam. Win.
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Post by Gree on Sept 26, 2009 20:50:19 GMT -5
Operation: Rolling Thunder. 1. Scout Valkyrie/Vendetta to within 12" of enemy wished dead. 2. First turn, disemark unit(2" disembark move), move towards enemy. 3. Fire guns at enemy. Remember to fire the guns on the Valk/Vendetta as well, since it's stationary this turn, though, if I am correct, you can actually move the Valk/Vendetta away during the movement phase, as it counts as having not moved at all, once your men disembark. 4. Assault enemy. Not to rain on your parade, but I will point out three flaws. 1. This only works if you get first turn. The enemy get's the second turn and thew Valks are most likely in trouble. 2. It only works if the enemy deploys as far as he can. This tactic can be countered by simply deploying back a few inches, outflankers, or offer up a sacrifical lamb. 3. Assualt, not always good against CC specialists. Carapce will make them survive, yes, but any kind of AP4 weaponry or better will toast them in a single turn, as will any kind of close combat specialists. against any player with a decent counter attack element, I don't see them surviving very long to be honest. But yes, overall a very good tactic. Congratulations. a pity I will never use it because. 1. I'm too poor/miserly. 2. My regiment's fluff does not really permit Valks. Except for a maximum of 1 for my Malnian Kasrkin.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Sept 26, 2009 23:43:32 GMT -5
1. With the Valk's 24" Scout move, yeah, the first-turn assault becomes unviable. The first-turn shooting, however, which is the crux of the matter for this tactic, still remains effective.
2. Since I deploy in the knowledge whether I get first or second turn, I can easily employ a better counteroffensive tactic with my Valk/Veterans.
3. Yeah. But most Ap4 is Heavy or Special Weapons. Heavies, if you've positioned right, are negated by the fact your enemy should not have clear line of sight to you due to eithet terrain or opposing units. Specials are 1/2 shot weapons, and I've got 6 albative wounds, and there's no way in hell you'd use ordnance that close to your own men.
4. I average out about 5 dead marines with this tactic - of course, I have been known to fail utterly, but then again I've known it obliterate entire tactical squads with combined fire. So it's more effective than most.
5. That's why this tactic relies on the entire army working in support. On it's own, any guard unit is mullered, with the possible exception of the tanks. Working together, and the subtler options like veterans and Valkyries become even more effective. Trust me - obliterating a tank, a Dev squad and forcing a retreat with a psyker battle squad will screw with even the most hardened players battleplans.
6. Props to you Gree, for not going against your fluff.
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Post by Gree on Sept 27, 2009 7:16:17 GMT -5
2. Since I deploy in the knowledge whether I get first or second turn, I can easily employ a better counteroffensive tactic with my Valk/Veterans. Yes, that was my point. 3. Yeah. But most Ap4 is Heavy or Special Weapons. Heavies, if you've positioned right, are negated by the fact your enemy should not have clear line of sight to you due to eithet terrain or opposing units. Specials are 1/2 shot weapons, and I've got 6 albative wounds, and there's no way in hell you'd use ordnance that close to your own men. Why Not? I've done it before, and too good results. AP4 does not really hurt Power armor that much, so I shoot away. And then we have assualts, even a Berzerker squad down to 2-3 can still manhandle a Veteran squad, as I have found out from both sides of the table. 4. I average out about 5 dead marines with this tactic - of course, I have been known to fail utterly, but then again I've known it obliterate entire tactical squads with combined fire. So it's more effective than most. Again, it also relies on the opponet not being in transports at the time.Which on first turn alot of people are going to be. 5. That's why this tactic relies on the entire army working in support. On it's own, any guard unit is mullered, with the possible exception of the tanks. Working together, and the subtler options like veterans and Valkyries become even more effective. Trust me - obliterating a tank, a Dev squad and forcing a retreat with a psyker battle squad will screw with even the most hardened players battleplans. I don't doubt it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2009 7:29:13 GMT -5
This tactic isn't meant as a hammer approach. Of course you won't go and drop your men infront of tons of AP4 weapons (unless by doing that you killed off a 300 point terminator squad for example). And if we assume that the enemy is a marine and almost completely mechanized, you'll either be using Vendettas (a bit overkill) or the heavy weapon squads in your deployment to destroy the transports, allowing the veterans to shoot the marines.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Sept 27, 2009 8:41:15 GMT -5
Actually, that you Sotomayor.
You've just reminded me - this tactic can be pulled off with Vendettas just as well. Since the Scout move dosen't count for moving and firing, you can do this and still have your Vendettas fire all three lascannons. This makes it even more valid if you're facing mech.
Gree, you seem to be missing the point, if only slightly. This isn't something like a massed Bezerker charge. It's a co-ordinated, pin-point dual attack that you employ to knock out, say, a Land Raider and the Terminators inside, or, alternatively, a Excecutioner and another Russ, or finish off a Lash Lord with a hail of plasma.
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Post by Gree on Sept 27, 2009 8:48:20 GMT -5
Gree, you seem to be missing the point, if only slightly. This isn't something like a massed Bezerker charge. It's a co-ordinated, pin-point dual attack that you employ to knock out, say, a Land Raider and the Terminators inside, or, alternatively, a Excecutioner and another Russ, or finish off a Lash Lord with a hail of plasma. I understand the point perfectly, it's just that, with multiple transports, only one or two rhines tend to get knocked out when they are smoked. Most people I know tend to start behind cover with Rhinos and come out and smoke. But I do understand the point, I prefer to use my Valk outflank with meltas alongside the firepower of the Russes.
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Post by druchi on Sept 27, 2009 8:52:25 GMT -5
Would this tactic work with Two valks loaded with Vets?
Im thinking one squad with flamers/plasma for hordes or MC, the other with melta's for tank busting.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Sept 27, 2009 9:09:31 GMT -5
I've always used it with 2. 1 With Meltas and a Plasma Pistol, one with Plasmas and a plasma pistol.
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Post by druchi on Sept 27, 2009 10:20:07 GMT -5
I also just rememberd the stupidity of my post, I have been using Sisters with 3 flamers and a plasma pistol in one valk.
the second was to be my Melta or plasma squad as you can never really go wrong with 3 flamethrowers.
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Grom
Lieutenant
Live forever? Well i would rather die.
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Post by Grom on Oct 7, 2009 8:21:55 GMT -5
me and another imperial guard player who uses all valkyries/Vednettas with Vets and a squad of stormtroopers teamed up to take on my friends 4,000 points ultramarines. In all seriousness, there was hardly anything for me to do. The ultramarines were wiped off the table by turn 3, no thanks to me. I had always disliked my friends army because he hadnt even had enough imagination to invent colour scheme and just painted everything ultramarine, so this really showed him.
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