Commissar Chris
Captain
Jumping into conversations, everywhere...
Posts: 249
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Post by Commissar Chris on Jan 3, 2009 13:37:21 GMT -5
I've heard that the new codex will have new rules for the Elite Karskrin Squad. Making their own stats instead of using the Storm Troopers ones. Any news on that?
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Jan 3, 2009 13:41:21 GMT -5
kinda sounds like wishful thinking to me, but who knows.
I'd rather they just upgrade stormtroopers in general to be a little more bad ass, s4 hellguns, or maybe just assault 2, something to make them a bit more deadly.
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Post by aeonian on Jan 6, 2009 17:12:29 GMT -5
Indeed. In the Dark Heresy RP rule book, it describes stormies as being "assault troops"? Untrue! They have 3I, 3 WS and a rapid fire weapon! I can get standard guardsmen that can beat stormies in close combat for a few extra points! They're not assault troops! They're not even good ranged troops! Hellguns suck right now, and they need a major boost in the new 'dex! Major I tell you!
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Post by SirAndrewD on Jan 6, 2009 20:46:48 GMT -5
Agreed on Stormtroopers needing a major boost. In the current codex I find Veterans to be superior in pretty much any instance. The only time I ever got any use from "Kasrkin" was deep striking them with meltas and popping vehicles.
Turning them into a true assault unit, perhaps with assault hellguns, would be something I'd get behind.
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Post by Count Elakor on Jan 7, 2009 4:45:45 GMT -5
so they what, move towards the target, fire and then get stomped by the enemy cc squads?, even with a assault 2 gun, they suc in cc, and their gun still suck to be the best ig has to ofer them, it would be better is they al had plasma guns as standard(thad be nice[altough expensive])
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Post by norge187 on Jan 7, 2009 8:54:43 GMT -5
it would be better is they al had plasma guns as standard(thad be nice[altough expensive]) That would be bad very bad. Imagine multiple weapon failures that would equal no more squad. If anything maybe a bump on on the stat's for WS and BS, just one even, give them a assualt hellgun i agree with that idea. I wouldn't believe this rumour though, there is no way that would ever happen. You would have smurf players jumping across the table screaming they wan't to do the same thing to their termies. GW would never do such a thing.
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Post by aeonian on Jan 7, 2009 11:53:55 GMT -5
I freakin' hate it when marine players get made about "well, my guys aren't that skilled, so guardsmen being that skilled doesn't make any sense!" Well, actually, buddy, it does! Guardsmen can could have BS5, and marines could have BS3, and SMurfs would still be better all around fighters than guard due to the, well let's see: - 3 plus armour save - S4 ap5 base weapon - several free special weapons and heavy weapons - S and T 1 point higher than a guardsman - free pistol, frag and krak grenades - and they shall know no fear (where as guard will know much fear) God damn, I wish marine players would just shut the hell up, sometimes! Stormies either need better weapons, better mobility, or better WS, or hell, why not all of those?
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Jan 7, 2009 12:07:58 GMT -5
assault 2 hellguns and WS4
thats all I'm asking for
S4 hellguns would be nice too, but making them assault rather then rapid fire would be enough.
they're still guardsmen after all, we may want them to be supermen but that isn't the IGs way of getting the job done, its like we ask for chuck norris and get van damme instead, sure he ain't some demi-god, but he can still spin kick the crap out of your face.
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Post by SirAndrewD on Jan 7, 2009 15:08:14 GMT -5
The Kasrkin were so elite and fanatical that they even gave a hard nose like Eisenhorn pause, that's something even the Deathwatch didn't do. I'd like to see them represented in the rules in that way, and Marine players can just deal with it.
Guard really needs to lose its reputation among non-guard players as this unskilled, poorly led horde with low morale, the fluff has gone way beyond that, especially when dealing with the feature armies like Cadians and Catachans. The Cadians are supposed to be a well ordered military society, disciplined and renowned for their battlefield prowess, it's high time they get what they deserve on the tabletop.
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Post by 3ggh3ad on Jan 7, 2009 16:39:22 GMT -5
dont think kasrkins would get thier own profile / stats either. Though stormtroopers need a boost (s4 hellguns, assault 2, WS/BS 4, extra special weapon per squad ,pistol and ccw per trooper -now these are just ideas they shouldnt get them all).
"its like we ask for chuck norris and get van damme instead" - i disagree with that, we SHOULD get chuck norris.
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Post by SirAndrewD on Jan 7, 2009 16:52:00 GMT -5
"its like we ask for chuck norris and get van damme instead" - i disagree with that, we SHOULD get chuck norris. We should get Chuck Norris, agreed. Right now though, I don't think we're even getting Van Damme, we're stuck with Steven Segal.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Jan 7, 2009 16:58:41 GMT -5
We should get Chuck Norris, agreed. Right now though, I don't think we're even getting Van Damme, we're stuck with Steven Segal. Or perhaps Hulk Hogan Seriously though, the only way I think we would be getting a separate Kasrkin unit would be if GW releases non- Kasrkin models for the plastic stormies, but even them I doubt it. I think they'll be up-gunning the Stormies a bit, but that's all Reds
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2009 18:50:14 GMT -5
The Kasrkin were so elite and fanatical that they even gave a hard nose like Eisenhorn pause, that's something even the Deathwatch didn't do. I'd like to see them represented in the rules in that way, and Marine players can just deal with it. While they did fight extremely well and without hesitation, that didn't save them from getting killed as quickly as a whiteshield. I really hope they give stormtroopers a big buff (they need it). Assault 2 24" S3 (or assault 3 18") would be nice. Perhaps Combat Tactics (but they wouldn't have ATSKNF), or Stubborn (hey, stormies are future commissars!). let them take 3 special weapons deepstrike/infiltrate for no extra cost can regroup under 1/2 strength. can take S4 shotguns if they give them some of these changes (assuming points don't go up), you will see a LOT more stormies on the table (GW would sell more models!). PS. As for the Stubborn rule, on a side, i think Commissars should grant Stubborn to the unit they join (instead of Fearless).
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Post by SirAndrewD on Jan 7, 2009 19:08:21 GMT -5
They died fast, but you have to consider their opposition. In the later book even a Titan couldn't stand up against the Daemonhost they were going up against.
That said, I could get behind those rules.
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Post by norge187 on Jan 7, 2009 21:28:09 GMT -5
I agree with boxant especially about the shotgun part that would really be a nice touch. Though with us loosing doctrines more than likely we can only look forward too having to pay more for such elite units. Even if the stat's stay the same i'm more afraid that at the end of the day they will still cost more imo. Plus anything extra will cost an arm and a leg. I.E. drop, infiltrate, anything else of that nature.
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Post by SirAndrewD on Jan 7, 2009 23:47:19 GMT -5
I would not be happy with a price increase on Stormies, even if they were boosted in stats. I don't want that to sound biased, but even with a decent boost they're well below a rank and file Marine and shouldn't have a cost close to his.
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Post by inquisitor0sylver on Jan 8, 2009 22:39:14 GMT -5
The Kasrkin were so elite and fanatical that they even gave a hard nose like Eisenhorn pause, that's something even the Deathwatch didn't do. I'd like to see them represented in the rules in that way, and Marine players can just deal with it. Ok, while I fully agree that Stormies are vastly underrepresented in the rules as is, I have to challenge you on the eisenhorn bit. Yes, good old Gregor was intimidated by them, but if you recall his reaction when he saw SMs and CSMs go at it, he practically wet himself. Its all in the terms that Abnett used in the descriptions, kasrkins are what they are, they are stone faced killers for the Emperor (Hooah), while the Deathwatch had an air of civility so that everyone around them WOULDN'T be too scared nutsless of them all the time to do their jobs. Anyways, my suggestion for a rewrite to Stormtroopers is this: Points: BS WS S T I W Ld Sv 10 4 3 3 3 3 1 8 4+ Base equipment is Hellgun, Hellpistol, Frag grenades, Krak Grenades, Targeters (Change targeters to be something they just have, not something dependent on the hellgun.) Hellgun: Range 24 Str 3 AP 6 Rapid Fire, Rending Hellpistol: Range 12 Str 3 AP 6 Pistol, Rending Targeter: Targeters assist with rapid target aquisition and friend or foe recongnition, greatly enhancing a firer's accuracy in the confusion of combat. Models do not receive cover saves for shots fired by a model equipped with a targeter. All other options remain the same. Stormtroopers come with Infiltration and Deepstrike naturally. While rending may seem overpowered for Stormtroopers, it really isn't. Against nearly everything in the game they already need a 5 or a 6 to wound anyways, all that rending will do is allow you to reliably kill about 2-4 models with a round of shooting from your stormtroopers. Also changing targeters from there current not all too useful version (In 3rd addition Targeters were great, in 5th they are redundant.) to allowing you to ignore cover saves opens up possibilities. These two changes would make Stormtroopers be exactly what they are meant to be, shock troops able to go where you need them to go and still get the job done. What do you all think?
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Post by norge187 on Jan 8, 2009 23:50:42 GMT -5
I agree good post...
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Post by sammy1979 on Jan 9, 2009 3:53:15 GMT -5
good idea the only additions for me would be drop the frag and krak grenades, and give them a free melta bomb, and make hellgun ap 4, now i know this looks really impressive but on a strength 3 weapon it's still 5 and 6 to wound i'd rather a better ap score then rending. rending is just to powerfull you could end up with a hell gun killing a land raider(theoretically 3+ 6+ 6) and thats just daft.
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Post by inquisitor0sylver on Jan 9, 2009 7:40:14 GMT -5
good idea the only additions for me would be drop the frag and krak grenades, and give them a free melta bomb, and make hellgun ap 4, now i know this looks really impressive but on a strength 3 weapon it's still 5 and 6 to wound i'd rather a better ap score then rending. rending is just to powerfull you could end up with a hell gun killing a land raider(theoretically 3+ 6+ 6) and thats just daft. Rending adds d3, not d6. So it would be 3 + 6 + 3 = 12 for max penetration. And actually rending would be a good reason to make the hellgun AP - rather than AP 4, as that would subtract an extra -1 from your damage table roll. As you'd already be getting a glancing hit most likely, I doubt very much that anyone will be using hellguns to kill tanks any time soon even with rending. As for AP 4, exactly how would that make them better. There are 2 units in the game against which this would be useful: aspect warriors and fire warriors, against everything else Str 3 would still cancel it out. And as for the grenades, the current models are covered with them, and its not like they really ADD all that much to the options for Stormies.
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Post by sammy1979 on Jan 9, 2009 8:53:41 GMT -5
my bad on the rending rules but still with rending you can take on most walkers chimera's looted truck etc and if your putting 18 shots into a light tank or walker there's always a reasonable chance of getting those 6, and as for AP 4 what do you want, Jesus the hell guns an over powered flash light, rending is daft. So you cant mess with the st value so once you got your wound roll, AP4 may only increase the killing potential to other: Stormie's, elder, tau, marine scouts, inquisitors, some of the SOB's, certain daemons, most dark elder, death copters, flash gitz etc do you want me to go the list is actually pretty big in fact its pretty much everything thats not in power Armour, but by not including anything in power Armour, you keep the fact its a flashlight on steroids. so that seems pretty fair to me! and melta bombs would be an extra little thing that gives them a little advantage but @ a risk. after all maintaining balance in the game is the key thing.
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Post by SirAndrewD on Jan 9, 2009 10:24:27 GMT -5
Ok, while I fully agree that Stormies are vastly underrepresented in the rules as is, I have to challenge you on the eisenhorn bit. Yes, good old Gregor was intimidated by them, but if you recall his reaction when he saw SMs and CSMs go at it, he practically wet himself. Its all in the terms that Abnett used in the descriptions, kasrkins are what they are, they are stone faced killers for the Emperor (Hooah), while the Deathwatch had an air of civility so that everyone around them WOULDN'T be too scared nutsless of them all the time to do their jobs. I don't disagree with you there. As I've said, even a rank and file Marine is going to naturally be better than a Stormtrooper, and yeah, when they're doing their job I'd be more intimidated by a nine foot tall genetic offspring of a demi-god than what is essentially a space Green Beret. The point I was trying to make though is that they were elite and fanatical enough to actually intimidate a guy like Eisenhorn, which begs the question as to why they're currently really no better than guardsmen in the first place. And as a Marine player myself, I have no problem seeing them improved to a point where they're actually useful and deadly models on the battlefield, befitting their status as a fanatical elite. I still say that if other Marine players don't like it, they can deal.
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leinadyor
Captain
A little to the left.
Posts: 171
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Post by leinadyor on Jan 10, 2009 3:30:06 GMT -5
Why not just give us the option of taking a platoon of Kasrkin instead of just a squad.
Something like this: Elite choice stormtroopers may be taken as a single 5-10 man squad or as a small platoon with two 5-10 man squads lead by a senior officer with an all veteran command squad, may infiltrate or deep strike at no additional cost at a total of 10pts per model with either a str4 ap6 or a str3 ap4 hellgun with 18" assault 2
Troop choice grenadiers are roughly the same but may have 2-4 squads and will cost 2pts less per model with the loss of infiltrate and deep strike
all of them may take chimera's or valkyries as transport vehicles
This does have some flaws but for the most part works out rather well and the SO represents a seasoned leader for a more elite force
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Jan 10, 2009 3:37:07 GMT -5
As for AP 4, exactly how would that make them better. There are 2 units in the game against which this would be useful: aspect warriors and fire warriors, against everything else Str 3 would still cancel it out. and stormtroopers.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2009 0:12:16 GMT -5
I agree with sirandrewd, Stormtroopers are an elite choice and should be treated as such. Look as smurf vets. They can take all of those fancy upgrades and ammos. BT vets can take all storm shields and and can be completely pimped out as well. Why should stormies just be Guardsmen who can actually hit things? Arn't they the same price as Eldar guardians!?! and those poncy elves get a ws4 also and eldar players even insult their guardians calling them a waste of points! why should our "best" be worse then their "worst" They should get such things as aux. grenade launchers, able to upgrade to hotshot guns that blast or are wound on 4+s like the sternguard. I mean, when I mention that I play guard and am interested in stormy squads, people laugh and make fun of them BUT! If I mention that i'm a Black Templar player and I field a Sword Brethren squad, people flee from them in droves (don't insult the dresses, these boys have chased a termie squad compeletly off the field and have even defeated my dog in close combat, he won't try chewing on them again) ... ... ... They should also add lightning claws as acceptable wargear to take for the sergeants or officers ;D
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