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Post by Machine Gun Kelly on Aug 23, 2010 14:25:01 GMT -5
I think the Punisher looks more cool.
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Post by ssgtdude (M.I.A) on Aug 24, 2010 7:04:45 GMT -5
I think the Punisher looks more cool. Just remember no matter how sexy they look someone somewhere is fed up with their nuts.
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Post by unluckyguardsman on Aug 24, 2010 14:55:04 GMT -5
I think the Punisher looks more cool. and that's all that matters! but seriously, I think there is definitely a case for including the punisher in your army, as has been discussed.
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Post by Rook on Aug 24, 2010 17:59:05 GMT -5
I think the Punisher looks more cool. Just remember no matter how sexy they look someone somewhere is fed up with their nuts. I love that quote.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Aug 24, 2010 18:01:57 GMT -5
I love how it's edited.
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Post by ssgtdude (M.I.A) on Aug 24, 2010 23:12:52 GMT -5
yeah it did add a new twist to it.
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Post by Machine Gun Kelly on Aug 25, 2010 11:27:39 GMT -5
I don't want it in my army, but rather looking all hot and sexy on my shelf.
It will be the my Toy version of Cameron Diaz.
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Post by Rook on Aug 31, 2010 0:30:22 GMT -5
I don't want it in my army, but rather looking all hot and sexy on my shelf. It will be the my Toy version of Cameron Diaz. I have never more fully understood a man than I do at this very moment.
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Post by compgeek1602 on Sept 11, 2010 20:07:32 GMT -5
Mathhammer a punisher with Pask, HB side sponsons, and a Heavy Stubber and compare it to getting two hellhounds with Heavy Flamers for the same price. If it didn't move, the punisher has 29 shots at S6 and 3 shots at S5. Let's say the target is a 20 man squad of Ork 'Ard Boyz. So, since pask makes you BS4, 66% will hit. That's 19 and 2 hits, respectively. Wounding, that's 16 and 1. After saves, you killed 8.5, on average. Now, for the Hellhounds, each has two flamer templates. one is S6, one is S5. Since the S6 template has more flexibility, we'll say that one gets 8 and the other gets 5. I've done this on numerous occasions, including getting all ten men of a squad under that baby. Now, these autohit, so on to wounding: for S6, we have 16 hits, wounding on 2's equals roughly 14 wounds that IGNORE THEIR ARMOR AND COVER SAVES!!!!!! for the Heavy flamers, we have 10 total, wounding on 3's equals roughly 6 wounds that IGNORE THEIR ARMOR AND COVER SAVES!!!!! You have just officially wiped an entire 20 man squad off the board. There is no comparison. Punishers are an extremely expensive, albeit cool looking, waste of points.
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Post by grix on Nov 20, 2010 19:32:59 GMT -5
What about the concept of the new Nid list? I ran into a list with 2 Tyrants, 2 Tyrant Guard, 1 Tervigon, and a Mawloc. That is alot of wounds at T6. On average how many wounds with a Punisher w/3 HB and a Hvy Stubber being shot by Pask put on a T6 model when you get to reroll wounds?
yes it is short ranged, but even if you force a Tyrant to take 10 wound saves on a 3+ he should fail atleast 3-4 killing a Tyrant outright. Shooting it at a Tervigon or Mawloc with 6 wounds each should cause enough to ensure he dies to Melta/Plasma or LC which are in range.
Would someone who is a bit more math savy be willing to run the numbers against a Monsterous Creature using the above scenario?
29 Str 5 shots 3 Str 4 shots BS 4 Re-roll to wound.
He ran that in a 1750pt list. Which after running it through Army Builder I am sure was a bit higher than 1750...
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Post by Laughing Man on Nov 21, 2010 6:05:56 GMT -5
I really don't find it that effective. I'd rather for the cost of upgrading it properly take 2 hellhounds which can be far more effective.
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Post by grix on Nov 21, 2010 11:42:03 GMT -5
Ok, after doing some research to try and figure this out. I came up with this
{chance to hit w/Pask} | {chance to wound} | {chance it being saved} | {# of shots}
2/3 * 1/3 * 2/3 * 29 = 116/27 {str 5 vs T6} 2/3 * 1/6 * 2/3 * 3 = 12/54 = 6/27 {str 4 vs T6}
122/27 = 4.518 {# of unsaved wounds}
This is however not taking into effect the re-roll to wound from Pask. I am not sure how to work that in. =/
So, if Pask can get a full turn of shooting on a big bug, on "average" he should cause 5-6 wounds (I am saying 5-6 instead of 4-5 due to his reroll to wound).
Hive Tyrant- 170+ pts gives you 4 wounds Swamp Lord- 280ish pts gives you 5 wounds Tyrant Guard- 30 pts per wound Tervigon- 160+ pts gives you 6 wounds Carnifex- 160+ pts gives you 4 wounds Trygon- 200+ pts gives you 6 wounds Mawloc- 170+ pts gives you 6 wounds Tyrannofex- 250+ pts gives you 6 wounds
So all in all, I think that a Paskunisher stands a good chance of getting its points back in 2 turns. The wounds he causes are not affected by cover as this is basically regular 3+ or 2+ save and thats better than cover. Melta, Plasma, Lascannon, Autocannons, GL, ect. will either not do enough wounds, or be subject to cover saves.
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Post by twerd on Nov 21, 2010 21:49:16 GMT -5
I really don't find it that effective. I'd rather for the cost of upgrading it properly take 2 hellhounds which can be far more effective. yes but two hellhounds are the same price as two vendettas?
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Post by krasimirova on Nov 22, 2010 4:08:32 GMT -5
Strange to compare 2 fast choices with 1 heavy choices..
I have a few pointers on the stuff that has been said about the Punisher..
- If fighting orks, put on sponsons because they will let you shoot more. Not really.. Range 24" on your primary and in order to shoot all 29+ shoots.. You'r not allowed to move.. Against orks.. Orks that open everytank in the game in CC, and now you just helped them, because they auto hit on you.. (And yes yes i know you might have killed 8 - 9 orks before that happens... Great...
- All the Punisher builds around here uses 200+ points, it is painfully obvious that people who use that many points on a tank that dosnt really do stuff, either don't play much.. or don't win much.. Use the points on the std. Leman Russ, bare bone... It can move, shoot 72", wounds on 2+ 7 out of 8 times, Kills everthing short of termies and mega armored nobs and it is cheaper than dirt..
Ahhhh... [Rage/off] If you are going to take the Punisher, take it in a Rock 'ard Aircav/Mech plasma+melta kick you in the teeth list, where everything works and is super at killing.. And now i know people will say that you could just play to have fun and to try funny new models/units.. But winning is fun, and making lists that actually works are fun too..
/Krasimirova
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Post by benaiah on Nov 23, 2010 2:09:13 GMT -5
Doesn't the Punnisher have Lumbering Behemoth so it would be able to move 6 inches and still fire everything? Or am I mistaken on how that rule works?
Also Krasimirova your math is horribly wrong. It will not wound 7 out of 8 times, it would be far more often than this as there are not many models in the game at all with T7. Or if you were trying to say that if you got 8 hits 7 would wound, there is a pretty good chance that you would get 2 1's. Not great, but its there.
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Post by krasimirova on Nov 23, 2010 6:40:26 GMT -5
Sure it does.. My mistake, you can move 6" and be harder to hit in CC.. And about the other thing.. I was making a example.. You know.. 10 out of 9 times and the whole schebang.. And how can you say that there is a pretty good chance that i would get 2 2's.. And then say that the chance isn't great.. I mean, first you say it is a good chance.. and then you say it is a not a great chance.. (2.77%) Suffices to say the Main Battle Tank will kill most things in the game.. (And before you say it.. When i say kill i mean wound..)
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Post by grix on Nov 23, 2010 10:27:55 GMT -5
While it is true that at first glance the standard LRBT is better. How many people when your playing against veteran players will you see a pie plate cover more than 4 or 5 models? So yes on those 4 or 5 models you wound on a 2+, but if they are in cover or God forbid have a 2+ save your effectiveness goes down considerably. 4+ cover sees them make 2-2.5 saves. 2+ save means you will more than likely not kill any.
Now consider that with a Punisher. 23 shots at BS3 sees 11 hits, 3+ to wound on T4 models sees 7-8 wounds. Standard 3+ save sees 2.5 models die at T4. On a T3 model with a 4+ save sees same number of hits same number of wounds but 4.7 models die. On T3 model with a 5+ save you kill 6.3, and on a 6+ save you kill 8 models.
Plus it does not scatter. And everyone here knows that a scatter can and often does mean no wounds or hardly any dead...
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Post by grix on Nov 23, 2010 10:44:27 GMT -5
Strange to compare 2 fast choices with 1 heavy choices.. I have a few pointers on the stuff that has been said about the Punisher.. - If fighting orks, put on sponsons because they will let you shoot more. Not really.. Range 24" on your primary and in order to shoot all 29+ shoots.. You'r not allowed to move.. Against orks.. Orks that open everytank in the game in CC, and now you just helped them, because they auto hit on you.. (And yes yes i know you might have killed 8 - 9 orks before that happens... Great... - All the Punisher builds around here uses 200+ points, it is painfully obvious that people who use that many points on a tank that dosnt really do stuff, either don't play much.. or don't win much.. Use the points on the std. Leman Russ, bare bone... It can move, shoot 72", wounds on 2+ 7 out of 8 times, Kills everthing short of termies and mega armored nobs and it is cheaper than dirt.. /Krasimirova -Yes 24" range is kinda bad, but you dont have to put sponson's on it. so it can move and fire its 23 Str 5 shots every turn. -Basic Punisher is only 180 points its the fancy stuff that costs more. But like I said how many models can you normally get to fit under a pie plate? -The only things the Punisher does not wound on a 2+ are SM (yes I know there are a lot of SM, and T4+ models). Without actually counting how many models that includes I am fairly sure that MOST models in 40k will be wounded on a 2+ And the armies that are not, are traditionally small count elite armies. -2+ armor save, invul saves and cover saves are the bane of battle tanks. That is why a Vet Squad with 3 PG will on average kill the same and often times more than a LRBT or Demolisher because they don't scatter. They hit on a 3+ -Just because you don't like the tank does not mean its not effective. You are forgetting that 3/4's of your codex has BS 3 so it will miss 50% of the time. Yes that includes basic guarsmen, platoons, HWT, SWT, Sentinels, Ogryns, ect. But people still field them, and they are still successful at it. After mathammering it out, I have come to the conclusion that it is indeed viable in specific builds. And it is a specialized tank, but just as much specialized as a Melta-Vet-Squad. Hell, I was privy to a list that a General in Europe took to some tournament and won it. And his list had 2 Punishers. Looking at it, it has a lot of things and option loadouts that would make people say thats dumb. But if it worked for him there might be sound logic behind it. And as for myself after running into a nid list last week I am seriously considering taking two of these bad boys. Even if just for the psychological effect of seeing two punishers pumping out 23 shots each, one at BS 3 and one at BS4.
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Post by verminard on Nov 23, 2010 11:39:48 GMT -5
The punisher also works wonders if you have tanks around it. Mainly because there are tons of times (at least in my experience) that your opponent will make an assault and maybe not kill your tank, and as much as you want to shoot them with your LRBT, you can't because you can't put a template on top of your own models, and the center hole must initially touch an enemy model. Plus using math hammer on the punisher does it injustice, Sometimes you roll bad yes, but that one or two times that you roll amazing and just hammer a squad with 16 hits from the main cannon, 2 from the HB and wound with 15 of them the tank really shines.
Second, as far as an ork assault, the only orks that can hurt it are Powerclaw nobs (or a Warboss, but your pretty screwed then) which have a strength of 9 on the charge with 4 attacks? meaning two hits if you move (which you always should with a punisher and hull heavy bolter). Out of those two hits one will probably pen and then only have a 1/3 chance of wrecking the tank. Its not as much as a guarantee as it seems, and none of the regular orks can hurt it due to its 11 rear armor. I find it a surprisingly resilient tank in CC.
In a world of ork powerclaw attacks pretty much every tank out there is in danger except for a Landraider/Monolith. The key is to keep them moving, seeing as if orks want to assault a tank then they will probably be able to do it with all the open top fast vehicles at their disposal.
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Post by krasimirova on Nov 24, 2010 3:43:55 GMT -5
-Yes 24" range is kinda bad, but you dont have to put sponson's on it. so it can move and fire its 23 Str 5 shots every turn. True...-Basic Punisher is only 180 points its the fancy stuff that costs more. But like I said how many models can you normally get to fit under a pie plate? What can you get for 185 points in our codex..? Everything except a executioner.. I am just saying that just because it is fancy and shiny you might be better off spending the points on something els..-The only things the Punisher does not wound on a 2+ are SM (yes I know there are a lot of SM, and T4+ models). Without actually counting how many models that includes I am fairly sure that MOST models in 40k will be wounded on a 2+ And the armies that are not, are traditionally small count elite armies. Sure.. But it is not only the ability to wound, what about armor saves? And since you normally dont know what army you are going up against in a tournament, with all the Wolf and Angel spam out there i feel that i really need the AP3..-2+ armor save, invul saves and cover saves are the bane of battle tanks. That is why a Vet Squad with 3 PG will on average kill the same and often times more than a LRBT or Demolisher because they don't scatter. They hit on a 3+ Inv. saves are something we cant do anything against, and you still get cover saves against plasmaguns.. And yes AP2 plasmaguns kill 2+ things, but the same does demolishers.. And true the Main Battle tank is gonna be just as good as the Punisher against 2+ armor saves..-Just because you don't like the tank does not mean its not effective. You are forgetting that 3/4's of your codex has BS 3 so it will miss 50% of the time. Yes that includes basic guarsmen, platoons, HWT, SWT, Sentinels, Ogryns, ect. But people still field them, and they are still successful at it. You do know that i do play Guard right..? I dont run CCS and Vets only lists like some ppl.. So don't worry, i am perfectly clear that WE have BS 3..
And i do like the tank, against Dark Eldar skimmers, Nid monsters or in lack of AP2 temies and the like.. But i just don't find i viable in a list where you need to take all the armies out there into account..After mathammering it out, I have come to the conclusion that it is indeed viable in specific builds. And it is a specialized tank, but just as much specialized as a Melta-Vet-Squad. Sure it is specialized, specialization works when you know what to expect, but in a all comers enviroment you have to take a bit of both worlds. And 100 points worth of vets and melta is gonna wreck most stuff short of a monolith if you get them in order range, so in my opinion they will have a easier time earning they points back.. Than 185 points worth of horde/spray-machine.. But that is just my opinion.. Hell, I was privy to a list that a General in Europe took to some tournament and won it. And his list had 2 Punishers. Looking at it, it has a lot of things and option loadouts that would make people say thats dumb. But if it worked for him there might be sound logic behind it. As said before it is possible to find good match ups, and i am not saying that you can't win stuff with it.. I am just saying that i see better options for the almost 200 points in our codex..And as for myself after running into a nid list last week I am seriously considering taking two of these bad boys. Even if just for the psychological effect of seeing two punishers pumping out 23 shots each, one at BS 3 and one at BS4. I dont know the list you are fielding but if you know what army (Not list, Army) you are facing then i am sure you will be able to finde something in our codex that will work for you.. If you have trouble with the hordes, then instead of the Punisher i would consider a hellhound, since templates autohit.. And as you said 3/4 (less than) of our units only have BS3 I feel that there is a certain animosity towards my views on the Punisher, so i will just make this clear.. It is a nice tank and it does have its uses.. But i feel that it is a better tank if you have the luxury of knowing what army (NOT list) you are facing, but in a all comers enviroment i see better options in our codex that can fill out multiply rolls.. And that is the message i am trying to give to the author of this thread since he in the dawn of time asked about what we felt about the Punisher..
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Post by special ed on Jan 11, 2011 15:36:04 GMT -5
I have 2 punishers and wouldn't trade them sure they are expensive but mine haven't failed me yet
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Post by Walrus on Jan 11, 2011 23:10:52 GMT -5
something the punisher is good against is DE, with everything being T3, and the highest Armour being AV13 (Vect's personal ravager) with most armour seen being 10 or 11...
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Post by twerd on Jan 12, 2011 1:34:00 GMT -5
i use my punishers for one thing only hitting those small units, 5 man tac squads, monstourus creatures stuff like that it works wonders trust 20 shots at a small squad will take it out
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Post by emptyhat on Jan 12, 2011 2:11:22 GMT -5
I've read a lot of posts about the punisher being weak and a bunch of posts about how to fix it. I've also seen a lot of people say the punisher is worth it for its sexy looks (it is IMO).
My question is: Do you think that the punisher would be better as it is at its current points cost if they moved it from heavy support to fast attack?
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Post by Walrus on Jan 12, 2011 3:15:31 GMT -5
Do you think that the punisher would be better as it is at its current points cost if they moved it from heavy support to fast attack? I doubt it, as it would make less spots available for things like sentinels and hellhounds
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